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Sniper
01-07-2011, 11:13 PM
A few weeks ago it became pretty obvious that the Limited Edition HSV's for 2011 would be a basic and cosmetic package . . . and any HiPo HSV that was under development would probably not show its head on July 1 2011 . . . and armed with that info I decided not to comment any further til today

. . . . and in hindsight, the timing in HSV's History was a tad off for an extra special edition . . . with the last SE being the W427 . . . generally there is at least a five year window between super special models

Depending on which way we look at it. . .HSV's 25th year is 2012 or 2013 . . . but in recent times HSV has aligned its start as the Holden Preformance Brand to 1987 when the contract was signed between Holden & TWR . . . therefore, 2012 is HSV's 25th year

. . . and with that. . . I not only expect. . . I demand that HSV celebrate 2012 with various programs inc a Limited Edition HiPo vehicle

I therefore expect a batch of "Best Ever" performance vehicles to roll out of Clayton at some point in the year. . . possibly late in the year to celebrate the actual day. . . or slightly earlier at the Sydney Motorshow . . . . or possibly the HSV Nationals in July - but I doubt they would do that!

Expect HSV to use the W427 "ideal" as the starting point with the addition of the LSA. . . or even better the LS9. . . . and expect a raft of HiPo innovations that are currently under development at Clayton.

I expect HSV staffers to keep an eye on this thread to guage the feeling of owners so with that, I would like everyone to post up their suggestions for the car. . . which will argueably be the most important vehicle in HSV's history.

Think about your suggestions as they will need to be engineered to pass current Australian Design Rules. . .

delpiero
01-07-2011, 11:39 PM
well for me, it has to be running some forced induction, but a coupe version of the VE would be interesting running an LS9 or supercharged LS3.... not sure if GM has any double clutch gearboxes in the states, but that would bring the transmission side of things into the 21st century. maybe a stripped out track version, similar to the M3 CSL....needs to be something different. in my honest opinion though, HSV should just concentrate on making the normal models better, but a supercharged variant would make me happy!

+ EDIT
cabin controlled coilovers and a bit of carbon fibre wouldnt go astray either!

SoulJet
02-07-2011, 12:06 AM
Great idea and a pro-active positive move Sniper.
I must admit that I have been getting a little cranky on what seems to be the current trend that HSV is following. Here is my idea for what it's worth...

Firstly and most importantly, bring back the proper 2 tier engine program...

------ Clubsport/Maloo/Senator/Grange to have the current affordable 327 engine which offers great performance value for money and allows your every day Aussie bloke to own a new HSV.
------ GTS and optional Senator to receive the LSA or the previously used (and engineered) 7.0 litre dry sumped W427 unit. Power at 375kw to not only give the bragging rights back to the GTS owners and HSV themselves, but to also keep the W427 owners happy.
------ Introduce a new 25th anniversary GTS/R. Needs to be one colour (Maybe XU3 yellah or matt black), a lighter and effective revised bodykit with a larger rear wing (not V8 supercar style but something that actually has some use and doesn't look tacky). Proper track bred technology, suspension, interior, light weight wheels etc. Maybe the LS9 powerplant... Or if not, an enhanced/tuned version of the GTS LSA/7.0 engine above with power at the magical 400-420kw mark. A paddle shift box. Limited to 100-150 units. Marketed correctly to the high income blue collar customers. Be honest with yourself HSV, you're not Audi.

I could go on forever but I'll leave it at that for now :)

KAL SPL
02-07-2011, 12:31 AM
Omega looks , stripped out caged interior with LS9.

The sleeper look is the new black.

HSVGTS125
02-07-2011, 12:46 AM
To be fair the only anniversary model that stood out to me was the 5th and thats because its the first time HSV did something like this.
Was a basic 1 colour option with colour coded wheels and special trim. But the engine packages were already available across the range so that was a let down (and the VP GTS would of looked great in Galaxy Blue had they built it).
Only thing they did decent in the 10th Anniversary was blueprint the engine in Senator Signature. But at a cost of 100k you actually paid for it anyway. Plus this was already available across the 5.7L range so it wasnt unique.

15th and 20th Anniversary models are worst to date with them really being almost unnoticed and introducing that terrible Delft blue for 15th (no appologies here for that, its a horrible colour)
Seems as the anniversaries rolled on, HSV does less.

As for special stand alone cars that rise above the rest (Group A's aside) there are really only a handful worthy of true mention.
1. SV5000 (first of the 200kw)
2. VP GTS (return of a legend)
3. VR GTS (first stroker and factory 6 speed for HSV)
4. VT2 GTS 300 (new era and smashing the benchmark for aussie power)
5. W427

So long story short:

HSV please dont do what you've been doing. STOP the lazy anniversary models, give enthusiasts something they deserve for buying/ sticking to your brand and actually WOW your customers and competitors (Thats FPV even though HSV wont admit it).
Stick to one colour not available to Holden/ HSV, give them their own unique bodykit styling and wheels, throw in packages that wont be seen in mainstream HSV for 5 years like massive power hike, brakes and gadgetry software like SV6000 got and give SWB cars different visual instrumentation like Caprice so it wont be copied easily. They dont need to make money on this car, they just need it as a billboard around the country (and NZ) which will pull more dollars in the long run. And cast everything from brakes to engine block and extractors to exhaust tips with 25th anniversary as well as special embroidery for the trim and true dash build plaque to show off that final touch.

Silver Spur
02-07-2011, 01:30 AM
Turbo is the new Black!!!

Since HSV are copying AMG, how about a Bi-Turbo GTS.

Some sort of DSG gearbox would be nice too!!!!

VYSHSV8
02-07-2011, 01:39 AM
I can't see them using the 427 in any car as that would take away the rarity of the "W"..

So this is what i would like to see

Senator,CLubby and Maloo get the LSA

GTS and Senator Signature get the LS9 with the option of manual again in the senator.... Yes I know you can get the current senator in a manual...

GtS to get lightweight brakes and Rims and track rubber tyres, but all models can be optioned up with them...

GTS to get fully adjustable coil-overs....Seven speed auto with paddles, and lightweight panels alloy/carbon fibre, to make it more of the track inspired race car from which it was derived...

Will have more of a think and get into it more in depth...

Senator01
02-07-2011, 10:05 AM
My opinion .... yes to most of above, but ....... HSV already did it with the W427, This was a vehicle outside the mainstream cars like GTS, Clubsport, Senator, etc.... so if there is to be another special model that is to be everything over and above the standard then it needs to be identified as such ..... I don't know, bring back the Magnum name (even though Brock created)? Leave the mainstream models as they are.

It is going to be based upon the upcoming VF series so they are constrained by Holdens design methodolgy and chassis rigidity. They need to get the best possible NVH they can so maybe a start would be better interior soundproofing ..... yes it needs more power (400kw at the least), driveline and suspension to suit .... Manual or Auto??, single identifiable colour scheme, the best and highest standard interior and a non-Holden 'kick-ass' sound system.

Also try not to be to 'gimmicky', be simplistic. Don't try and be European -- create a vehicle that can beat the Europeans.

All this in a package that maintains some resemblance of affordability to the blue collar mainstream market.

Krisiun
02-07-2011, 11:14 AM
Who cares about what 138 W427 owners feel if the 375KW mark is surpassed. I don't see AMG, Lambo, Ferarri etc. worrying about hurting the feelings of their previous model owners. It's only a VE Holden at the end of the day for christ's sake.
Next model from HSV has to be at least released with forced induction to even be on a level playing field with FPV - no question about it. Even the entry level GS model from FPV can be with $3.5K turned into a 375RWK monster that will decimate your precious little W427.

VYSHSV8
02-07-2011, 11:23 AM
Its not about surpassing the 375fwkw mark, its about using the 427......
And I reckon the 427 would beat the supercharged coyote around the track anyway :):) its not all about straight line performance......

now back on track and lets not bring up the usual holden vs ford debate

akanives
02-07-2011, 12:52 PM
1 off release of 50 (give or take)
VF GTS. LSA.... Convertible.
ever been cruising in a topless car? yep.
ever been cruising in a gts? yep.
ever been cruising in a 400kw Monster GTS with no roof? no :(

Sarge
02-07-2011, 02:12 PM
1 off release of 50 (give or take)
VF GTS. LSA.... Convertible.
ever been cruising in a topless car? yep.
ever been cruising in a gts? yep.
ever been cruising in a 400kw Monster GTS with no roof? no :(

I second this option as well Akanives. A Convertible would be awesome!

GR8T
02-07-2011, 04:49 PM
What about something like this as a covertable ?

I like the caption on the video, take note HSV, "May not be what you are expecting but isn't that the point".

I suppose to make it a true HSV anniversary car it has to be made based on the current shape (base) cars.
I myself would have no problem with something like a re badged Camero as we do the same in the way of exports from OZ, but this would not please the purists.

We just need something different and powerfull is all I'm trying to say.

http://www.egmcartech.com/2011/02/09/2011-chicago-2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-gets-550-hp-lsa-6-2l-supercharged-v8/

Senator01
02-07-2011, 04:57 PM
What about something like this as a covertable ?



Whilst not necessarily a Convertable or even 2-Door (although that WOULD be nice), this is what I would expect from HSV .... something quite subtle and subdued from the outside, but able to smack the pants off anything within reach.

Audi, BMW and Mercedes do it. They all have a great sports vehicle arm that doesn't create anything outlandish but still provide the goods in a very neat package....

HSV did this in a reasonable way with 427 ... I believe they need to keep to this path and maybe soften the exterior even more but fit one helluva an engine/driveline package. .... days of the GTS-R are behind us in my belief...:!:

surfwagon
02-07-2011, 05:11 PM
Who cares about what 138 W427 owners feel if the 375KW mark is surpassed. I don't see AMG, Lambo, Ferarri etc. worrying about hurting the feelings of their previous model owners. It's only a VE Holden at the end of the day for christ's sake.
Next model from HSV has to be at least released with forced induction to even be on a level playing field with FPV - no question about it. Even the entry level GS model from FPV can be with $3.5K turned into a 375RWK monster that will decimate your precious little W427.

Agreed.
Also you didn't see HSV worried too much about VT1 GTS 220i owners when they released a basic 250kw VT2clubby with 6 cylinder brakes fitted to it.

PhanR8
02-07-2011, 05:26 PM
Matt black would be nice.4wd would be fantastic but if you want power do it right 572 supercharged big block..now that would be something to get excited about.

Krisiun
02-07-2011, 05:33 PM
Matt black would be nice.4wd would be fantastic but if you want power do it right 572 supercharged big block..now that would be something to get excited about.

This thread is becoming farcical - no wonder HSV laughs at what is written on forums...8-)

Sniper
02-07-2011, 05:46 PM
This thread is becoming farcical - no wonder HSV laughs at what is written on forums...8-)

Exactly . . . . try to imagine what they really can do and take to the market!!!!

IEVLV8
02-07-2011, 06:17 PM
TT 427 coupe 60 please

HSVGTS125
02-07-2011, 06:17 PM
I don't no if it's meant that way but that's quite insulting to ask people what they'd like to see then say that (even tho I see what u mean). But to be fair what would you expect from a company that has built things from a 2 door convertible SV5000 style car to a GTSR coupe, 427 coupe to HRT maloo and even an almost production ready maloo trayback but given us none of them. In recent years the only company who offered custom builds worthy of mention was CSV but they no longer build them. HSV know what they're capable of so they should just wow us at motor shows with their capability then put it on the market instead of building what they build and force people not to think outside the square.

SoulJet
02-07-2011, 06:25 PM
I think it's very easy to get carried away with power figures. Imho a 400 odd kw car would be enough. It's still a 70+kw jump from the current GTS and a token 25kw more than the previous most powerful HSV.
Perhaps HSV needs to start turning their attention to light weight parts and better engineering to allow to put this kind of power to the ground. Let's face it, the VE isn't a light weight car and anybody can walk into a performance shop and tune/modify an easy 400+ rwhp.

The 0-100 and 0-400m times aren't that much quicker than the first 300kw cars over 11 years ago.

I would like to see HSV's lighter than a Holden SS with not just a more powerful drivetrain, but a more effective and efficient one.

In the end, everybody has a different opinion so whatever is brought out won't please everyone. Neither will any of the ideas brought up here. However, there will be some ideas where the guys and girls at HSV may think to themselves "Yeah, we can do that." :)

hsv.286
02-07-2011, 06:32 PM
Perhahps a "race breed" version? One off colour with wrap-around buckets seats front and 2 for the back similar to what hdt did to their Ve..paddle shift would be nice too and extensive carbon trim inside/outside as well as long as its done right and not tacky! Refined drivetrain components of course.. An "RB/25":cool:

Senator01
02-07-2011, 06:37 PM
OK .... to start small ... ditch the shitty plastics and handbrake. Put a decent steering wheel with Alcantara covering like the Porsche GT2/3. Better seats with firmer and adjustable bolstering, maybe heated. Keyless entry and start capable.

Might be some small ideas to start ...... but then a lot of small ideas creates one big one!!

Sniper
02-07-2011, 06:46 PM
Over the next week or so I will lay out my wish list. . . bit by bit to make sure it is all do - able

I will brake my list into various discussions

Exterior Appearance

Wheels/Tyres

Engine/Exhaust

Brakes

Interior

Electronics

Transmission

Diff/Rear suspension

After living the 30 years of "special vehicles" in Australia, I feel that I have a fair idea of what can and cannot be achieved within the Holden/GM/ADR approval system

We certainly can have one very tough VE with what is currently available within the HSV/Holden/GM Powertrain Divisions

220isenator
02-07-2011, 10:53 PM
Without going into all the cars they could make I will simply state what they should make if they want to go back to a race bred special edition.

Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari, Pagani, Bugatti, Bentley etc. etc. are already doing this with all their top models. There is no need to reinvent the top model in the range but simply perfect it.

Take the GTS for example, as this is the current top model available. It has been proven by several aftermarket modifiers that more power can be extracted from the motor without the need to add forced induction. Strip it back, add stronger internals with 'special materials' used for things like pistons, rods, valves and springs. Add to this a larger cam, specialised air induction and a race bred exhaust. All of this still needs to comply with emissions and noise limits but it has been proven that this can also be done. If this is done to the current 317 even if you only got an extra 20-30kw in a package this would be ok.

Then to begin with the body. What does a GTS weigh these days?? 1700-2000kg? Strip out all interior parts and start with a clean slate. Use carbon fibre or similar lightweight material for all dash, seating, door trims etc. Use minimal electronic gadgets for weights savings. Already the power to weight ratio has been hugely improved.

The drivetrain then needs to be only slightly beefed up as the E3 HSV's have already got a decent package and, considering there isn't a huge power increase, only slight modifications would be needed.

Gearbox should stay with a six speed manual, just add a short shift, as flappy paddles or DSG would be hard to develop and never work as well as the good old manual.

Clutch could be upgraded to a stronger unit which would also be a simple change.

Diff can be strengthened with a good LSD unit. Kaaz or similar.

Brakes are already a good package so only aesthetic changes would be needed. If they want to make them seem special they could always throw a ceramic pad in or similar.

Wheels would then carry on the race theme by being strong, lightweight and possibly painted in the nice carbon fibre paint that Graeme showed us in another post.

Suspension needs to be taken out of the realm of comfort ie, MRC and replaced with a good set of fully adjustable coilovers, carrying on the race theme. Bilstien comes to mind.

Once you add all of these factors you will have one very special unit. Lightweight, strong and powerful. A race bred edition. If I remember correctly this is what HSV was known for 20 odd years ago. As I mentioned before this is what all the top marks are doing now. Whether they call it a RS, GTS/R, SV, Black edition or GRPA doesn't matter as the car will sell itself. If people have to pay a 30-40k premium for this product they will pay as it will be truly exclusive with build numbers limited to 100-150.

Reading back through it now it seems as this is what HSV were trying to achieve with the original GTS/R, they just missed it slightly with the strange colour scheme and not going the whole hog.

This is my dream for the near future however, this can also be carried on to the next models in 2012-13 where they will hopefully introduce the S/C engine. Build the Clubby with a tune to compete with the FPV. Make the GTS in a power range of it's own, tuned to maybe 50kw extra and then another lightweight race spec model in limited numbers as the collectable.

This all basically goes back to the grass roots of what we all found special about 'Holden Special Vehicles' when we first fell in love with the mark.

HSVGTS125
03-07-2011, 12:01 AM
Reading back through it now it seems as this is what HSV were trying to achieve with the original GTS/R, they just missed it slightly with the strange colour scheme and not going the whole hog.

.


No it was a Con like the rest. They glued carbon fibre over plastic which if anything made it heavier (ever so slightly) and gave it a cheap n nasty wing that wasnt adjustable, made it as bright as possible so it looked like they did something different and added over $10,000 to the price of a GTS (not including the extra $10500 for the blueprint).


VN Club Sport is the grass roots, no frills, lightweight track car. Was a basic exec with optional Group A seats, 330mm brakes and an SS type spoiler kit. Add a Calais instrument cluster with a $35000 price tag and it was the perfect car

macca33
03-07-2011, 12:54 AM
I reckon the 'Anniversary' model has to be a GTS - the ultimate HSV (at least up until VE) and they have to seriously consider the LSA at least.

They have plenty of R & D from GM USA and I would bet London to another brick that there have been VE LSA / LS9 mules getting about, somewhere in GM land - the Camaro being one such vehicle. Also, if they wanted to partner up locally, Walkinshaw have managed to put a fair bit of R & D into the Harrop products and I'd suggest that they would be some way towards ADR-compliance, even if they do not yet have same. In saying that, I must return to the LSA though, it is complied for California and their CARB regulations now.

I also think it has to have a significant colour / body / appearance that makes it abundently clear it is the special model. I thought the 10th Anniversary Senator Signature went a fair way towards this - at the time (althogh I agree with past comment about the blueprint engine option) - so HSV must use that base ideal as the starting point and expand on it.

Lastly, some semi-comp tyres, a bit of a track machine, with REAL weight saving through use of carbon fibre. lightweight wheels, panels also.

SOMETHING TO GET PEOPLE EXCITED AGAIN!

Cheers

akanives
03-07-2011, 03:57 AM
I don't no if it's meant that way but that's quite insulting to ask people what they'd like to see then say that (even tho I see what u mean).

well as per the original post this thread is for genuine suggestions and ideas that are possible and might hopefully happen if anyone reading this takes intrest.

not a wish list. TT 427 coupe, 572 supercharged big block?
really see them happening?

HSVGTS125
03-07-2011, 06:03 AM
well as per the original post this thread is for genuine suggestions and ideas that are possible and might hopefully happen if anyone reading this takes intrest.

not a wish list. TT 427 coupe, 572 supercharged big block?
really see them happening?

Who knows, after a decade of 215kw being the top figure then was pipped slightly by 5 kw no one saw 300 coming in the VT Series 2 & certainly did not see a 427 in less than a decade.

look at Ford, they've been dreaming for the day they'd get bragging rights to a decent stable and now there it is. Their whole line up is either supercharged or has a turbo. Did anyone see that happening 10 years ago? definately not

TT427 or 572 supercharged is just a matter of quoting numbers, getting the crates sent over and doing the development. Same as FPV did but with a larger displacement.

HSV are the ones denying FPV are the competition and Euro cars are, so rather than being whooped by them (and by cheaper japanese cars) every year maybe they need to step it up & actually do that!

Sniper
03-07-2011, 07:59 AM
DIFF/REAR SUSPENSION

I thought I would start with an easy one . . . .for both our discussions and HSV

Using the "proven" engineered yardstick of the W427. I think the rear end springs and bushes used in the W program could be carried over given the LSA is only up 42kw on the LS7 (375 to 417) . . . however the additional torque may necesitate an increase in the 'Bush" strength . . . easy (but time consuming) stuff for the HSV Engineers!

The rear end diff ratio really must go from 3.7 to 3.9 . . . which is pretty much available off the shelf . . . and would require the same metal treating process that went into the W diff

Going to 3.9 will enable three things . . . and I am not really sure which one I want the most. . . but using my calculator. . . we should get all three . . . increased accelleration (obviously) and if the tyres I am currently researching get the gong. . . . we can have a little bit of acceleration. . . a bit more road presence . . . and sharper grip/handling. . . .

Senator01
03-07-2011, 06:44 PM
Ok Graeme, I need to ask ..... what makes you think HSV will take ANY interest in what is discussed in this thread?

I am in no way being obstructive, just trying to get an idea of how HSV willl receive any of this information .... Yes this is a HSV Forum, and Yes there are a lot of knowlegeable and passionate people on it ... but would that REALLY make HSV sit up and take notice of what is said??

Firstly I am in no way defending them for there current direction and DO believe they have an obligation to get back to their true direction and create a Holden (HSV) that Holden can't ..... but they are a business and are creating products that are everything to everybody, not one thing to a minority... that's business...and they MUST meet ADR and safety baselines.

I am FOR identifying areas that WE feel need attention, but will it really make a difference? Are THEY listening?????

Maybe the ideas presented could be applied by an individual .... like yourself... that has the capability and capacity to create something VERY special??

Maybe it is Walkinshaw that is now the new HSV, and HSV are now JUST, and I emphasise JUST an extension of Holden now delivering slightly higher moded vehicles???

Sniper
04-07-2011, 12:27 AM
Be rest assured, HSV will keep an eye on this thread . . . just as they have with the "Garages" thread . . . they are under the pump and under pressure from Holden

Forget Walkinshaw Performance . . . very little of their Performance stuff can either pass ADR or Local State Legalities and they do not have official Holden endorsement

The answer is to nudge HSV. . . although this 25th car is already deep into development. . . it will be good for both HSV Engineers and us Forum members to pass on "Constructive" ideas/comment

Watch this thread slowly evolve into a interesting discussion!!!!

VYSHSV8
04-07-2011, 01:17 AM
3.9 diff ratio a minimum:) also add to that better fuel economy, right foot dependant.

Rear suspension needs to be fully adjustable castor/camber for track days and coilovers for bump and rebound adjustment, also the coil overs need a reservoir canister fro extra cooling

VYSHSV8
04-07-2011, 01:20 AM
If this goes ahead I might be inspired enough to sell my cars and actually buy a performance HSV:):) instead of having to buy an HSV then spend 20K+ on mods to make it what it should be :)

HSVGTS125
04-07-2011, 01:26 AM
If they want to know what people want they should listen at V8 supercar events where the Aussie Grassroots lie. Not Motorshows and forums. Bathurst is where australian performance was born and HSV have lived off that reputation for 25yrs without even building one for 20. Our cars are unique in the sense they are neither USA straight line performance cars with huge cubic inch capacity nor are they high tech european touring cars. They are somewhere in between.
They need to build a car that doesnt look like an after thought. Integrate their styling so it looks like it was designed that way from the beginning. Sorry to you E3 owners but I dont know which end I hate the most, the terrible X shaped front with tacky driving lights or the rear bumper with droopy sides where the exhaust exits. Im still not a fan of the tail lights either.
I know I wont make friends saying that but I know Im not alone when it comes to that styling because Ive also got friends who stopped buying HSV after VZ. I have a passion for what HSV were and thats only because I stopped enjoying where they were heading years ago. I'd happily have one in my garage today IF I found their product worthy. But I dont.
I intially went to HSV back in 1994/5 from Ford because they had a V8 ute and Ford didnt. I got hooked on them and stayed. Pretty much after VT2 GTS I became less interested coz I didnt see them progess the way I thought they should. Especially since their only expansion was due to Holden throwing endless opportunity their way with niche cars like Monaro, Cross8 and Adventurer.

They need to either build a car thats a true contender to Euro cars and price accordingly to ensure they stay in the game OR stop pricing themselves out of their true market and build cars that built them up in the first place.
HSV have delved into other areas a few times without success (VXR, XU6, SV1800, Jackaroo) and because the competition in these cars give buyers what they want, HSV cant muscle in on it and sell ordinary cars at a premium price because of a badge. These buyers aren't silly, they want more and get it from the competition.

If Prodrive with 51% stake in FPV can go it alone and develop a Supercharged 5 litre V8 without a core vehicle from Ford Australia (who are very strick with global guidelines) and build a car worthy of the GT nameplate Im sure HSV with their close relationship with Harrop over the years could do the same with a supercharged engine. ADR's are not hard to comply with, CSV built a supercharged 420kw La Classe with sequential 6 speed manual and 9 inch diff back in the 90's and managed to sell 1 to order for $150,000 (for those who dont know CSV were a secondary manufacturer like HSV). So anything is possible if they want to do it. Its just a matter of whether they want to.
Since the introduction of the LS1 here in 1999, HSV have had it pretty easy in terms of not cracking open an engine and having to build it like the old cast iron stroker days. So its about time HSV got serious and not only catch up but lead again. Whether HSV admit it or not FPV are a true contender with a great stable and the best way to make people aware there is only 1 true performance car maker is to build the ultimate 25th Anniversary car and make that the new benchmark for future cars!

Sniper
04-07-2011, 07:40 AM
Make no bones about it HSVGTS125 . . . your post makes a lot of sense. . . but David Richards (Prodrive) had to, over the FPV years go it alone with Engine Development. . . and Tom/Crenno got away with plenty using the GM parts bin pretty much (except C4B) . . .and the current HSV team will continue to use stock from GM powertrain to power their cars

The VE has about 2 and a bit years to go and then its another clean sheet of paper with Gen5 engines so it definately doesnt add up to develop something outside at this time . . . and when all is said and done. . . the LSA or LS9 will eat the Boss 335 for breakfast

What I do agree with is HSV have "sat on their hands" for far too long and let us HSV supporters down by giving FPV a win. . . and that shits us all!!!

Drew. . . they cannot get fully adjustable suspension settings through ADR. . . sorry mate

delpiero
04-07-2011, 07:08 PM
i dunno about you guys but id like to see a HSV not based on a commodore....something that looks more like a sports coupe than a sports saloon. something lightweight like a corvette with an LS9...

Sniper
04-07-2011, 08:59 PM
BRAKES

As I believe that the Anniversary HSV should be built in limited numbers (100) and the owners that purchase the car will probably not use it as a Daily . . . a few little tweaks can be applied to the Braking System along the lines of the Porsche GT3 or similar.

Firstly, the W427/GTS OPT braking package will suffice as far as hardware goes . . . but its the software (so to speak) that needs to be "Blueprinted"

The term software in this applications is. . . Fluid, Pads, Lines & the Fitment process!!!

Therefore, a few unique products that will require additional servicing over the cars life are in order

PADS - There is a huge range of compounds available to HSV that will improve braking performance. . . there are trade offs. . . wear on discs. . . poor stopping when cold. . . but who cares. . . this is a car with a Racing Heritage! . . . HSV have access to all this to develop.

BRAIDED LINES- the Rubber hydraulic lines from the fixed Holden lines to the Calipers need to be replaced by Braided Lines to eliminate pressure loss due to rubber hoses expanding under "Pedal Pressure"

FLUID - the Brake Fluid needs to be replaced by a genuine high temp fluid . . . this would need to be flushed more regularly that the stock Holden Fluid currently used . . . but once again - who cares. . . this is a serious car!

FITMENT PROCESS - as part of the "Brake Blueprinting" process, I would like HSV to pressure bleed the brake system rather than suction bleed. . . the will further enhance the hydraulics by reducing possible air in the system and therefore sharpen the pedal and overall performance of the brakes to the level expected by owners of this car

. . . the added bonus to this stuff here. . . is the additional cred that both HSV and the car could have

Andrew_02
07-07-2011, 11:44 AM
If you look at the VE2 update it was mostly on the tech side of the house, so much more can be done in this area with HSV... Is a bigger- louder exhaust, larger wheels that are rock hard going to count for much? So much talk about S Chargers, I agree with many on the forum its not all about kws the next special Ed should not have to better 427.
one-off wheels, seats, paint and air vents should not add too much to the cost and easily be approved. then owners that can't afford 150k plus can buy a few parts to mod their cars. i'm sure we will not be disappointed. Have I mentioned a bigger fuel tank even 20l more would be nice and i still want a tow bar (sorry)

GJ227
07-07-2011, 12:07 PM
HSV state Race Bred, so why not a track day car, stripped out no radio etc, race accessories, limited for the track, like Porsche etc do. roll cage, no rear seats, all the goodies that any performance shop could supply to tune them up, and part of the package could be a personal services package where Walkinshaw personally tune the cars for race days etc, for the owner as a valet style service?

HSV will never make a full on road car, as they know there is lots of business in after market and of course they have their own after market shop with Walkinshaw, so they will never cut that end of the market out.

Gj227

Andrew_02
07-07-2011, 01:11 PM
HSV build their own car? Race day cars only? come on not sure how big this clayton place is, or what they do there, maybe you should take a look at holden in SA or even the fishermans bend engine plant, Melbourne, how much does it cost just to make a cam shaft the machine area is bloody huge just for a cam shaft, dream on. sorry but lets be real here!
the big bits are all comming from the States or China.
Correct me if im wrong here but the biggest bit HSV do is the fibre glass front and rear bumpers, don't get me wrong I think HSV is the best, but lets be real about it.

runted
07-07-2011, 02:36 PM
BRAKES

As I believe that the Anniversary HSV should be built in limited numbers (100) and the owners that purchase the car will probably not use it as a Daily . . . a few little tweaks can be applied to the Braking System along the lines of the Porsche GT3 or similar.



just a question if you are pushing towards porsche why not go for ceramics?, if this is to be a sensational car then should the price for this matter so much or even offer ceramics as an option to reduce the base price, it may help in the long run for collectability buying a car that was "optioned", just my 5 cents worth

Sniper
07-07-2011, 05:08 PM
I agree with you Runted. . . and I thought long and hard about it. . . . but in the end , my experience with the thinking at HSV/Holden leads me to believe that they would not put in the necessary development time and money on Ceramics at this time in the VE Range . . . and in my mind, I am trying to put a package together for $120k. . . please take note that Porsche and Ferarri & Lamborghini option Ceramic brakes for anything between $15k & $26k . . . .

Having said that . . . and looking forward to the VF in a couple of years . . . . I hope much of that car (chassis wise) is aligned to many others in the International GM Stable . . . and Corvette Ceramic Brakes (ZR1) will need very little development to adapt to our cars in Aus!!

SV90
07-07-2011, 06:13 PM
There has been some good posts, If i had a wish list. I would love to see a new HSV car with Forced induction, 2 doors and AWD drive. But I know its not going to happen anytime soon. I really think that HSV should have kept on going with the development of the AWD systems used on the Coupe 4's. A LS3 combined with AWD drive would be a awesome car, throw in a supercharger and WOW :D. I read a article a while back that Ford is looking towards a AWD system in the near future. It maybe something that could be considered in the VF HSV series ???
Graeme do you think HSV would ever try a AWD model again ??

I also like the idea a few pages back of HSV importing a run of Camaro's ( mayby 25 ) from the US. HSV could fit them out as a 25th Anniversary Coupe. Mayby supercharger them and give them a one off Anniversary colour. That would be something special !!. I would love to see that, but dont see it happening either.

cheers

Senator01
07-07-2011, 08:59 PM
I also like the idea a few pages back of HSV importing a run of Camaro's ( mayby 25 ) from the US. HSV could fit them out as a 25th Anniversary Coupe. Mayby supercharger them and give them a one off Anniversary colour. That would be something special !!. I would love to see that, but dont see it happening either.

cheers

Somehow this wouldn't be a HSV .... more like a GMSV - General Motors Special Vehicle ... so don't think this will happen.

Whilst I too would like to see the AWD option, if we are looking to minimise weight, then this isn't going to do it. The additional diff and associated drivelines would add a fair bit of weight and the power output from the engine would have to be quite large to minimise driveline losses.

My guess would be for alot more Aluminium or Carbon panels for weight reduction whilst maintaining rigidity, rear wheel drive with a computer controlled torque delivery system that calculates car speed, wheel spin, attitude, power application, steering wheel position, braking, etc... thus ensuring optimum vehicle attitude and speed regardless of performance envelope. Basically alot more computer control that will maintain driveability despite driver input.

Sniper
07-07-2011, 09:38 PM
TRANSMISSION

With the gearbox we have 2 real choices initially. . . Auto or Manual . . . I went down the path of turning the E3 Senator into a paddle shift weapon but unfortunately hit a bit of a wall

Essentailly the electronic part of the Sequential Paddles is easy. . . but the actual paddles themselves were the challenge and it beat me. . . there is just not enough room between the S/Wheel and the Indicator/Wiper stalks to successfully make this a functional winner. . . I am sure it will come in a couple of years when GM/Holden are ready and we get a new tiller.

So manual it is . . . but not the lazy manual we have today!!!!

GM/Tremec have a vast array of different gear set combos straight off the shelf to suit my desires. . . and the ZR1 gear set is the answer. . .

Currently we have the following. . . 3.07 - 2.07 - 1.43 - 1:1 - .84 - .57 . . . this is a lazy wide ratio set for lazy day to day cruising. . . and thats about it

The ZR1 Tremec has a closer set with . . . 2.29 - 1.61 - 1.25 - 1:1 - .81 - .67 . . . as you can see, the ratios are far closer and the first gear whilst taller, is a winner whatever way you look at it. . . yes 2.29 is harder to get off the line and slower to get off the line under normal circumstances. . . but that is negated with the 3.9:1 rear end. . . so all is good . . . and the car comes alive.

Finally, one of the only Non GM items in the car would be a Ripshift . . . and for those that have never driven a car with a Ripshift. . . do it. . . they are awesome and change the driving dynamic of any car.

We are not yet half way there in my "Dream" 25th Anniversay HSV but already we have a sharper accellerating and shorter braking weapon . . . that is later into corners and quicker out of them. . . YUM

VYSHSV8
07-07-2011, 10:50 PM
I would like to see 5th the 1:1 ratio and .81 as 6th :)

As for ratio's
3.07 - 2.29 - 1.61 - 1.25 - 1:1 - .81

Sniper
08-07-2011, 12:58 PM
I would like to see 5th the 1:1 ratio and .81 as 6th :)

As for ratio's
3.07 - 2.29 - 1.61 - 1.25 - 1:1 - .81

Haha. . . thats a nice Quarter Mile set if ever I have seen it Drew . . . unfortunately that set is not available as a tested OE product . . . back in the good old days . . . when I was a lad . . . when men were men and the girls were on their toes . . . Holden & Ford had ratio options (both gearbox and diff) that made life interesting

jkhsv
08-07-2011, 06:17 PM
I would like to see a limited edition Group A !!!! :D

VYSHSV8
08-07-2011, 11:17 PM
Haha. . . thats a nice Quarter Mile set if ever I have seen it Drew . . . unfortunately that set is not available as a tested OE product . . . back in the good old days . . . when I was a lad . . . when men were men and the girls were on their toes . . . Holden & Ford had ratio options (both gearbox and diff) that made life interesting
Very true mate :):)

But not just a Qtr mile set, it will let you see in excess of 250 without a problem from memory :):)

Sniper
09-07-2011, 04:59 PM
WHEELS & TYRES

Even though HSV has just released a new wheel for the "Black Edition" that will also be available in Silver as an option along side the Pentagon, they also have another wheel style on the back burner in readiness for this project if required. . . I just hope it is forged & therefore reduces the insprung weight & overall weight of the car.

Whilst on weights etc. . . I would hope that the end result would come in at less than 1900kg's Dry . . .

The possible tyre choice is also a difficult one for me to settle on as there are 2 Bridgestones available in different configurations,

My first choice would be Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. . . but they only go to 19" and this car must have 20's . . . the Bridgestones on the R35 GTR (RE070) would be my next choice but they are only available in a slightly larger size (both width & height) which may well give the car a stronger presence. . . . but the increase in rolling diameter would come at the cost of less acceleration and it is a fine line with the diff ratios/gearbox ratios/tyre heights that equate to the all important 0 - 100 time

Whilst we are on the topic of 0 - 100, the W427 cracked a 4.7. . . this car will need to crack a 4.3 or better to be taken seriously . . and I hope I never hear them (HSV) use the title Supercar again. . . unless they have cracked a 3.99999

HSV use the words Supercar. . . and Black Edition. . . and Collectors Item far too "loosley" for my liking these days . . . the car must perform to the highest standards available in the GM "arsenal" before these terms should be used.

Now, back to the Tyres. . . the RE050 are just a nice daily road tyre . . . nothing really special . . . and cheap for HSV to buy!! . . . the only real option currently available in the sizes that Holden will allow HSV to use is the New Potenza RE001 . . . and that would suit this car nicely

Senator01
09-07-2011, 05:34 PM
WHEELS & TYRES

Whilst on weights etc. . . I would hope that the end result would come in at less than 1900kg's Dry . . .



1900kg is quite a heavy car Graeme .... the Senator comes in at around 1850kg..... I would have thought a 'special' car would have to have some essence of weight saving, or performance is going to be severely affected no matter the power train.

Sniper
09-07-2011, 05:57 PM
I can never get my HSV's to read the same weight as quoted by HSV when I put them on the "Longacres"

The LSA and associated stuff will add 40kg. . . plus things like the 6 piston brake rotors/callipers etc etc are substancially heavier than 4 piston combo.

The W427 weighs 1887kg . . . with about 10L in the tank

You should run your car over the scales one day with minimum fuel . . . that will set you straight.

Unfortunately, ADR's and Development costs for lightweight materials will put a "hold" on substancial weight savings . . .

VYSHSV8
09-07-2011, 10:13 PM
yep my VY weighs in at 1800kg and they say they are supposed to be 1700

HSVGTS125
10-07-2011, 04:39 PM
Iplease take note that Porsche and Ferarri & Lamborghini option Ceramic brakes for anything between $15k & $26k . . . .

!!

Thats coz they're a global prestige performance car with cashed up buyers who want bragging rights for how much they spend. Not what they save. Remember a one off steering wheel for the VS Momo ute cost $25k back in 97. That shows the length of stupidity people will go to to be acknowledged for anything

Martin Donnon
11-07-2011, 06:04 PM
I dont know if I would compare a marked up $200 steering wheel from a 'famous nothing' car as being a cost parallel with the latest Carbon Ceramic Matrix braking technology being used in high end performance circles.

We have much experience with this technology managing a set of the AP CCM brakes on one of our customers race track R35 GTRs. Even at a pinch, with a good deal on supply, a set of replacement rotors will run you back around $15K AUD, and the specialist pads required (for track application) around $4200 for a set.

This of course pales into insignificance alongside the factory Nissan Spec-V GTR CCM replacement cost of $46K which is actually cheap compared to some of the more exotic high end Supercar applications.

Are CCM brakes really a great thing? Well that depends on your application and how hard you want the car to stop. At the racetrack they certainly do have their advantages, as well as creating their fair share of problems along the way.

HSVGTS125
11-07-2011, 08:10 PM
I'm not comparing a $200 steering wheel with the latest brake technology. I'm comparing the ridiculous money people will spend on things like steering wheels and brakes or spoilers that in most cases will never be needed. Its one thing to have great brakes but $46k proves my point. Its just Stupid

Martin Donnon
12-07-2011, 07:40 AM
one thing to have great brakes but $46k proves my point. Its just Stupid

It may be stupid to you, but for some of the mid level Euro race teams that run the Spec-V in their local championships, being homologated with CCM brakes makes - all the difference - to their application.

Just like it could have been considered stupid to homologate rollers rockers in the VN Group A. Not too many on the street needed them - but the car had to have them for a reason.

For a shopping trolley - yes waste of time :)

HSVGTS125
12-07-2011, 04:49 PM
That's not a valid comparison due to several things. 1 is that being a homojogation special the factory has taken the initiative to install roller rockers (or carry over as vl had them too) along with any other off the shelf parts considered important for group a. 2 is there were no optional extras available in the interpretation of group a cars so one person couldn't have them and someone else couldn't. So if the factory deemed it necessary it got it. However if someone added $46k brakes to this from aftermarket and then turtled around town well that's silly.

Simonk
19-07-2011, 02:55 PM
Hey Sniper

Could you put together one of these threads for the VF? Given we know HSV read these, it would be good to give them some free market research well before it goes into production. We all own HSVs so we could maybe put together areas of the cars they could improve on, be it aesthetics or functionality. Things we liked or disliked about previous models. Things that are missing from the current line up. It's just a thought but imagine if they took the thread seriously!!!

Sniper
19-07-2011, 10:14 PM
I have been off the radar a bit lately and I will need to get a bit of inside info first . . . then we can look at what we have to start with. . . the timeline that I had earlier in the year was 2013. . . August . . . but I will check!!

hsv.286
20-07-2011, 01:04 AM
Hay Sniper,would the cv shafts need upgrading as well..? Or the stock items be able to handle the drivetrain upgrade..??:idea:

Sniper
15-08-2011, 11:05 AM
Well its time to finish off this discussion and see what HSV . . . or if HSV do anything for their 25th year!

I have been chasing info for a few weeks to no real avail. . . . things are tight around Clayton but there is something going on

The VF is still late 2013 at the earliest . . . . so HSV will need a profile lifter in the next 12 months . . . there may be an E4. . . or maybe not . . . but an "image builder" like the potential 25th Anniv car is definately on the horizon for 2012

Sniper
15-08-2011, 11:17 AM
EXTERIOR

HSV have a front bar in the "Sign Off" stage. . . . they have 2 different "Alloy Wheel" styles in sign off as well . . . plus another rear spoiler

One thing I do not have is a friend in the "Design Registrations" department but I would be pretty sure that HSV via GM would have lodged or be ready to lodge some stuff for "Patents" by now!

With the 25th car, I just hope they move right away from the current E2/3 front bar and do something special. . . but keep the DRL idea in place with smaller DRL's of a different design!

What are everybodys thoughs on Exterior design?

What Colour should it be?

Should it get a new rear Bar?

What colour should the Brake Calipers be?

PipeDreamer
15-08-2011, 11:32 AM
Hi mate...SR here...I have a broken mobile phone. Got your message but would love to speak. Can you call me on 9686 6496 when you get a moment? I'd call you but I can't find your number anywhere. Cheers,

Senator01
15-08-2011, 06:11 PM
EXTERIOR

What Colour should it be?



If anything I think from a HSV heritage perspective, Panorama Silver is synonomous with HSV so this would be a good start if done in limited numbers.

Also read an article this morning that said this- quote ' HSV'S performance line-up is gearing up to soon blur the line even further between racetrack and road, with the brand believed to be working on a rear-mounted gearbox similar to the next-generation V8 Supercars.' unquote

WIll they, ??

macca33
15-08-2011, 07:06 PM
They'll need a u-beaut sequential gearbox to sit behind the luverly LSA engine, I 'spose.

cheers

220isenator
15-08-2011, 07:08 PM
Colour, I'm thinking all white with carbon fibre inserts.

If they are redesigning a front bar then it would only make sense to change the rear bar and possibly redesign the exhaust exits.

As for brakes callipers, if they are big then go black. Wheels could be done in carbon fibre paint, like the ones you posted from the Champions Collection.

rodders188
16-08-2011, 11:26 AM
There are a few E3's floating around where i live and they look good but once you seen one , they all look the same. Think theres too much bling factor creeping in

Sniper
23-08-2011, 09:19 AM
INTERIOR

The Interior is a critical part of this mystique of a "Limited" vehicle. . .

I am tipping the Car will be either Black, Red, White or Silver. . . . with Yellow Brakes!!

To accent this internally I would therefore like to see the "Yellow" theme continue to be a highlight . . .

Yellow Stitching in the seats,console lid, door trim inserts, gear knob. . . with a specific logo in yellow stitching on the seats also

Yellow stitching on the Tiller too with a leather "Centre Line" stiched into the top centre of the wheel

Yellow background on the Tacho and Speedo

Specific mats for the model

Specific Dash plaque and build number display on the screen

What other suggestions can we add to this. . . . but remember, they have to be ADR'd and realistic to the HSV thought process!!!!!!????

Simonk
23-08-2011, 10:36 AM
Some exterior ideas
Remove the bank of LEDs from the front bumper thereby cleaning the front bumper up a bit. Replace the high beam spot lights in the bumper with DRLs. Include HIDs as standard which would eliminate the need for the spot lights. I don't know what the requirements are for DRLs but you could have something like a circle of LEDs or a filled in circle of LEDs for example in where the current spot lights are. If you don't have to use LEDs then maybe a neon style light like the BMWs use.

I can't think of anything to improve the rear bumper other than scrap it and start again. The exhaust tips Walkinshaw do are an improvement over the Mucielago style ones though.

Whilst I don't mind the current rear spoiler, I can only imagine it's a biatch to clean under the supports. I do prefer the look of the previous one also.

I'd like to see HSV lead the way by hiding all the parking sensors or at least making them inconspicuous. All the car manufacturers seem to like to make a feature of them across the front and rear bumpers. I know it's only a small thing but I'm sure we'd all like nice smooth panels on our cars.

Interior looks pretty good at the moment. How about a head up display. The one in dad's BM is ace. It looks like the display is on the bonnet. Other than speedo, it shows the NAV directions which is pretty cool.

How about HSV move away from the paper cone speakers which Holden have been using since the VN. Just changing the 4 door speakers would be a good improvement over the junk that Holden continue to use. If you banged $200 extra onto the sticker price no one would notice but the customers would appreciate a good sounding stereo.

I guess these aren't just 25th anniversary ideas but for any future models.

Sniper
27-08-2011, 09:33 PM
ENGINE/EXHAUST

I've been sitting on the part of the combo for a while to prove to myself that HSV had the necessary armoury available to make the right numbers . . . ie. . exhaust . . . and after this weeks results with our E3 Senator blasting 507KW and beyond through the HSV 2 1/4" Bimodals I am now satisfied that the Engineers at Clayton can deliver the goods using the W427 Spec Exhaust

The LSA has 410KW & 745NM . . . and thats is a fair start and HSV could wring another 10 or so KW out of it if they pleased . . or if GM powertrain allowed it . . . as it is rumoured the upcoming Camaro ZL-1 may have 420 or so!!

. . . so it is no real challenge for HSV . . . bolt in the LSA . . . engineer all the necessary LSA ancilleries and bolt up a W427 Exhaust . . . and whammo . . . there you go . . .

The Std GM LSA Clutch, LSA/LS9 Spec Tailshafts and Driveshafts will cut the mustard . . . so on the surface, there is no real reason why we cannot have this combo

Sniper
28-08-2011, 03:34 PM
In the next few days, I will cobble together an Imaginary "Press Release" for this Imaginary vehicle!

It could make interesting reading

Sniper
29-08-2011, 06:03 PM
HSV Media Release


EMBARGO 10am 19/10/2012


Australian International Motorshow 2012

On October 15 1987, 25 years and four days ago, HSV formally signed along term agreement with the TWR Group to build "Specialised Performance Variants" of Holden Models.

In those 25years, HSV has established itself as one of the finest niche production entities in the Global Automotive Scene and along the way forged relationships with many of the finest Automotive Performance Companies in the World . . .

Today, we announce the finest vehicle every produced by HSV . . . the ########## . . . , this groundbreaking Special Edition is the culmination of 25 years in Automotive Excellence, Design, Engineering and Performance . . .

The following specifications are at the very pinnacle of Automotive Performance Internationally for a production 4 Door Sedan . . . and elevates both HSV's and the Australian Automotive Industry's kudos to an unparalelled level of Excellence at this time.

The ########## feature outstanding Performance Enhancements in Powertrain, Chassis, Transmission & Style . . plus introduces features never previously used in a vehicle of this type!

Power is derived from the GM LSA Supercharged 6.2L engine and is mated to the now famous W427 BiModal Exhaust combination. The Transmission is derived from the famed Corvette ZR 1 with closer ratios than ever before used by HSV plus a performance shifter to enhance even greater acceleration

Brakes are based on the mighty 6 spot AP Racing units, but are hand "Blueprinted" in the installation process and also us braided brake fluid lines to increase pedal pressure under spirited driving conditions

Suspension settings are familiar to to the current GTS with the now famous MRC feature . . . but handling has been enhanced by the latest Bridgestone RE001 tyres that give greater driver feel & feedback.

Greater response and acceleration is attibuted to the High Performance "Shot Peened" 3.9 ratio Differential in combination with a full set of firmer performance rear suspension bushes.

Exterior styling features unique to ######### are . . Front Facia , Performance Forged Wheels and Rear Spoiler Designs . . whilst the Interior features special 25th Anniversary accents in Yellow including stitching and instument cluster treatments that complement the overall Stealth look of the ########

HSV will produce only 100 of these outstanding examples in November and December of 2012 . . . and in anticipation, more than half of the production is presold to Collectors that have been anticipating a "Special Vehicle" of this nature from HSV to celebrate 25 years of Performance!

Pricing for the ######### is $119,000.00 plus options

For all the finer details visit www.hsvforum.com.au . . . :p

. . . well there you go guys. . . . it's a bit of trivia. . . but easliy done . . . I wonder if we will get such a car . . .

Senator01
29-08-2011, 07:49 PM
[B][CENTER]
Pricing for the ######### is $119,000.00 plus options

. . . I wonder if we will get such a car . . .

Graeme, nice write up .... you should work in the advertsing department at HSV.

Honestly, $119,000k for this .... I think you are dreaming. Given the W427's price tag, and the fact it sold around 140 odd units I think the vehicle you speak of will be a substantial bit more in costs, me thinks...

My thought is given HSV will be now ramping up for VF, and that won't be released till 2013 onwards, then if there is a 25th anniversary model it will be a piecemeal version built from leftovers .... possibly another 'sticker' model.... Hope I am wrong.

richo7502000
29-08-2011, 08:35 PM
Graeme, nice write up .... you should work in the advertsing department at HSV.

Honestly, $119,000k for this .... I think you are dreaming. Given the W427's price tag, and the fact it sold around 140 odd units I think the vehicle you speak of will be a substantial bit more in costs, me thinks...

My thought is given HSV will be now ramping up for VF, and that won't be released till 2013 onwards, then if there is a 25th anniversary model it will be a piecemeal version built from leftovers .... possibly another 'sticker' model.... Hope I am wrong.

Hmmm I dunno, the LSA would be a much easier fit then the LS7 7.0 litre of the W427, as essentially it is a Cammed LS3 with a bolt on supercharger..no dry sump etc so packaging and ancilleries is so much easier to achieve IMO. So SHOULD be a much cheaper variant than the 427... and would be cheaper for them to build even with Snipers wish list than the W427 too!

I think your VF point has merit in the current climate, I also cant see why they would spend the cash now on a VE platform that essentially hasnt got long to run. BUT I think a VF supercharged version is a definate likelihood and these changes would definately be a great release point to pump sales for a 'new' facelift model as compared to a one off VE... again my opinion.

Ian Johnston
29-08-2011, 10:18 PM
Maybe they could build a car that was cheaper for the mainstream people who want an HSV, but have to wait 4 years until they are at a price 2nd we can afford.

Sorry, I know that wont happen.:mad:

I think I joined the wrong forum.

PhanR8
29-08-2011, 10:33 PM
Nice work.Sure would be nice to see one in person.Fingers crossed.

VYSHSV8
30-08-2011, 12:42 AM
mmmmm Likey :):)

VYSHSV8
30-08-2011, 12:43 AM
Now to get a better paying job considering I just started a new job today :( :)

Sniper
31-08-2011, 12:40 PM
Graeme, nice write up .... you should work in the advertsing department at HSV.

It's Not for me in the HSV Markerting Dept . . . but my original draft for this post was really good. . . but a little too drawn out so its been halved

Honestly, $119,000k for this .... I think you are dreaming. Given the W427's price tag, and the fact it sold around 140 odd units I think the vehicle you speak of will be a substantial bit more in costs, me thinks...

. . . . and the W427 should have been $120K . . . I dont think HSV will be able to ask a big number given you can buy a full house Supercharged FPV GTP for $75k

My thought is given HSV will be now ramping up for VF, and that won't be released till 2013 onwards, then if there is a 25th anniversary model it will be a piecemeal version built from leftovers .... possibly another 'sticker' model.... Hope I am wrong.

I hope they do something. . . well I know they will do something . . . and the HSV community needs a statement from them. . . it'll happen in some shape or form!!

macca33
31-08-2011, 02:08 PM
A little birdy tole me that in the HSV future, the LSA is a given, designs are done for a new bodykit and VF is where it will be at, so there are positive things on the horizon.

Whilst I appreciate that this is a 25th Anniversary car thread, I would submit that HSV NEEDS an engine such as LSA, fitted to their mainstream models, ie GTS and perhaps, Senator, to take it right back to the opposition. I also believe that it has to be based upon the new model, ie VF.

I think that many are awaiting the day when a GTS (once again) has more substance / differentiation over a Clubsport.

cheers

SoulJet
31-08-2011, 02:16 PM
I think that many are awaiting the day when a GTS (once again) has more substance / differentiation over a Clubsport.

cheers

Truer words have never been spoken :):):)

If this were the case then I may one day consider buying a new HSV :eek:

Sniper
31-08-2011, 03:18 PM
A little birdy tole me that in the HSV future, the LSA is a given, designs are done for a new bodykit and VF is where it will be at, so there are positive things on the horizon.

Whilst I appreciate that this is a 25th Anniversary car thread, I would submit that HSV NEEDS an engine such as LSA, fitted to their mainstream models, ie GTS and perhaps, Senator, to take it right back to the opposition. I also believe that it has to be based upon the new model, ie VF.

I think that many are awaiting the day when a GTS (once again) has more substance / differentiation over a Clubsport. cheers

The VF is still 26 months away . . . and there will be a new donk in the range . . . V6 will be majorly diffferent but off the existing bottom end . . . . and the V8 is all new

It (the VF) will arrive at the same time as the New Camaro, Vette, Caddy etc etc . . . all in mid to late 2013

HSV will send the VE off with something special . . . make no bones about that. . . . but how special - watch this space!!

Smithers_73
31-08-2011, 07:17 PM
Macca's got it in one, whether it be now in the VE range or the VF, there needs to be some REAL differentiation between GTS and clubsport like an engine that is not available in the Clubsport.

And I hope HSV do something along these 25th anniversary lines also

Sniper
10-09-2011, 09:00 AM
The following specifications are at the very pinnacle of Automotive Performance Internationally for a production 4 Door Sedan . . . and elevates both HSV's and the Australian Automotive Industry's kudos to an unparalelled level of Excellence at this time.

The ########## feature outstanding Performance Enhancements in Powertrain, Chassis, Transmission & Style . . plus introduces features never previously used in a vehicle of this type!

Power is derived from the GM LSA Supercharged 6.2L engine and is mated to the now famous W427 BiModal Exhaust combination. The Transmission is derived from the famed Corvette ZR 1 with closer ratios than ever before used by HSV plus a performance shifter to enhance even greater acceleration

For all the finer details visit www.hsvforum.com.au . . . :p

. . . well there you go guys. . . . it's a bit of trivia. . . but easliy done . . . I wonder if we will get such a car . . .

Well, finally overnight GM has announced the Power/Torque numbers for the "Special" LSA to be used in the LT1 Camaro next year . . . 432KW. . . 753NM

The LT1 will also feature a unique Engine Oil Cooler and Diff Cooler along with a few unique bits for the package!!!

There you go HSV . . . DO IT . . . !!!!

Sniper
15-10-2011, 12:40 PM
The Camaro ZL1 is pretty interesting. . . . I wonder how much (If Any) of the ZL1 Tech will get into this proposed Edition . . . GM have done plenty of trick stuff and it would be a bit of a waste if HSV didnt tap into it!!!

akanives
15-10-2011, 02:02 PM
yup they certainly came through with the ZL1.
lets hope they dont forget the cousin over the other side and send some good bits over

Sniper
03-12-2011, 10:33 AM
It looks like this 25th Project is just about at sign off . . . all the rumors suggest that the styling is signed off . . . the wheels are signed off. . . . and the Enginneers are down t final Chassis tuning and durability testing.

The EDI has (alledgedly) also been recaliburated to suit different parameters of the LSA - Read Power!!!

This will be the Best Ever HSV . . . by a country mile!!!

VYSHSV8
03-12-2011, 12:48 PM
Can't wait to see yours Graeme :)

Senator01
03-12-2011, 01:31 PM
It looks like this 25th Project is just about at sign off . . . all the rumors suggest that the styling is signed off . . . the wheels are signed off. . . . and the Enginneers are down t final Chassis tuning and durability testing.

The EDI has (alledgedly) also been recaliburated to suit different parameters of the LSA - Read Power!!!

This will be the Best Ever HSV . . . by a country mile!!!

Price????

Sniper
03-12-2011, 02:15 PM
Price????

I mentioned $120K in an earlier post and I think I will sit on that number for now!!!!

macca33
04-12-2011, 12:15 PM
I mentioned $120K in an earlier post and I think I will sit on that number for now!!!!

And to be honest, that is a VERY reasonable price, considering that the C4B cars were around the $100k mark (dependent upon chosen options) in 1999-2004 and the Senator Signature 10th Anniversary car breached $100k when it was released.

I reckon they'll be snapped up as quick as they are produced and the DIFFERENTIATION will be the greatest selling point, over and above the fact that it is the 25th Anniversary car.

cheers

richo7502000
04-12-2011, 02:00 PM
It looks like this 25th Project is just about at sign off . . . all the rumors suggest that the styling is signed off . . . the wheels are signed off. . . . and the Enginneers are down t final Chassis tuning and durability testing.

The EDI has (alledgedly) also been recaliburated to suit different parameters of the LSA - Read Power!!!

This will be the Best Ever HSV . . . by a country mile!!!

What end of 2012 would you expect this to be released then Graeme...If its nearly signed off except for final chassis tuning, potential production date shouldnt be more than 4-6 months away in all reality!!!

Whens the Sydney motorshow???? That would be a good pre release showing!!!

Sniper
04-12-2011, 02:19 PM
I am not sure what they will do Richo !!!

Maybe Sydney Motorshow . . . but the actual Anniversary day is later than that . . .

Who knows , , , but what I will say is the current HSV Management dont really care much about "Milestone Dates". . . they will do whatever they want. . . . so I think its October 19 2012 will be the day

Sniper
25-01-2012, 10:48 PM
HSV have gone into "Lock Down" with this project . . . info is very scarce . . . a couple of my mates in the Media are onto it . . . but have been embargoed . . .

Strick
26-01-2012, 11:11 AM
How soon untill its common knowledge?

HSVGTS125
26-01-2012, 03:28 PM
Advertise it in October with a teaser pic like they did with the delayed Walkinshaw and roll it off the floor on 04.01.13 to make it an anniversary to coinside with the Walkinshaw and 5th anniversary models. The front bumper shouldn't look like someone installed LEDs on a Mitsubishi bar and the rear bar shouldnt look like a Mazda 6 like the current crop of HSV.
And if they're to stick with the bulky front and rear bumpers try integrate them with decent side skirts so the whole car doesn't look like a Bull Ant side on. Put real side skirts on it too. Not the style that look like they're falling off (like VE Maloo). Make them tough like VN Group A style but suited to VE (Like VY GTS, have that little piece below the 300 badge before the front door which extends the side skirt).

Sniper
26-01-2012, 05:43 PM
I just hope the thing happens . . . ans doesnt get rejected at the last minute!!!! . . . . I also hope for 100 units . . . and I wouldnt mind if a small portion were Utes either!!!

blown vy gts
26-01-2012, 06:07 PM
[QUOTE=Sniper;79757]I just hope the thing happens . . . ans doesnt get rejected at the last minute!!!! . . . . I also hope for 100 units . . . and I wouldnt mind if a small portion were Utes either!!![/QUOTE

You got enough room for some more lol....

Pickles
27-01-2012, 09:58 AM
I've got no info at all......but 100 units?......geez, surely they'd sell more than that......depends upon price I suppose......but if it does have an LSA in it, I would have thought that it would be much cheaper than the W427, not needing all that under bonnet/dry sump design work etc?
Graeme has said, in a prior post, it'll be a sellout, well geez, at 100 units, I'd reckon there would be quite a few unhappy customers who would be missing out?
Cheers, Pickles.

HSVGTS125
27-01-2012, 10:54 AM
I just hope the thing happens . . . ans doesnt get rejected at the last minute!!!! . . . . I also hope for 100 units . . . and I wouldnt mind if a small portion were Utes either!!!

Maybe one thing would be to stay away from individual model names. Just allocate models within the build like the 5th and 10th anniversary models did. Meaning 1-10 are Grange or Senator, 11-20 R8 and so forth but dont actually label the cars as grange or senator. Then call the entire line up the HSV E-25 and have no power output bagdes. Just the 25th anniversary on the side similar to 5th anniversary and "since 1987" on the rear. Who cares if it causes confusion, its subtle and for a select few

Senator01
30-04-2012, 10:45 PM
Hey Graeme .. you have been relatively quiet lately. Any updates on the anniversary model?

SV300
30-04-2012, 11:06 PM
Hmm I have some info on this model...

Not much but enough to know I won't get a discount on it....

J


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pickles
01-05-2012, 09:31 AM
Well, I refer to this as the S/C car......and I reckon it's on.
Cheers, Pickles.

go sick
01-05-2012, 12:01 PM
my tips are 22in rims 6.3lt and only too doors 375kw

Strick
01-05-2012, 01:03 PM
can you share that info SV300

SV300
01-05-2012, 07:01 PM
can you share that info SV300

Wait till I decide to place an order.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Senator01
01-05-2012, 07:51 PM
So you don't know anything????

Sniper
02-05-2012, 08:33 PM
Hey Graeme .. you have been relatively quiet lately. Any updates on the anniversary model?

I have been busy mate . . . causing trouble and doing new business things

Sorry . . . . no updates . . . I must give my contact a call!!!

The last ting I heard was there would be 2 varients . . . a Full House version and a Sticker Special volume version. . . . .

Mzsammi
03-05-2012, 10:54 PM
I have been busy mate . . . causing trouble and doing new business things

Sorry . . . . no updates . . . I must give my contact a call!!!

The last ting I heard was there would be 2 varients . . . a Full House version and a Sticker Special volume version. . . . .

hes been quiet because i told him to be quiet hahaha . hes been bad so hes had to sit in the naughty corner for a while :)

SV90
30-08-2012, 05:24 PM
Today 2 of these 25th anniversary R8's turned up at work. I didnt expect much, but was still dissapointed. I had a look over one of them, only differences being, 325 kw's, Name plate under the stereo on the dash, some 25th anniversary sill plates and a plain looking decal on the back window. Also the build number on these cars run in with the normal clubsports. The one I saw was in the # 1800"s. I would have thought they would have started at 1 and so on. They did stencil the name onto the build plate. I will post the pictures later tonight. I cant help but think if the re releasing these cars is a way of using up the cars sitting all over the country that are not selling. Can a 2011 / early 2012 be re badged if it is now a different model ??? Its the only way I could see them using up all the cars already built. How will this effect the resale value for people who bought the first E3 R8 ??

HSVGTS125
30-08-2012, 05:47 PM
. Can a 2011 / early 2012 be re badged if it is now a different model ??? Its the only way I could see them using up all the cars already built. How will this effect the resale value for people who bought the first E3 R8 ??

Resale will be the same as any running update. If people are looking to sell an E3 now they're setting up for a loss with or without a 12.5 model
As for selling an older model as a newer model it can be done. Ford Tickford did it with the Mustang. They were older bodied cars sold as newer ones.

runted
30-08-2012, 06:14 PM
Also the build number on these cars run in with the normal clubsports. The one I saw was in the # 1800"s. I would have thought they would have started at 1 and so on. They did stencil the name onto the build plate. I will post the pictures later tonight. I cant help but think if the re releasing these cars is a way of using up the cars sitting all over the country that are not selling

thats disappointing if thats the case

Pickles
30-08-2012, 08:14 PM
thats disappointing if thats the case
+1...Of course it is...if that is the case?......,but we gotta stand by for Phil's BBBIIIGGG announcement, for what is going to be,....."The 25th Anniv. GTS"?.....I would like to be "EXCITED"......BIG TIME.....but I ain't holding my breath.
Cheers, Pickles.

Senator01
30-08-2012, 08:20 PM
Spoke with a HSV rep at a local dealership and the topic got onto how all of us here had high expectations of something special for the 25th model and a release at Sydney Motor Show .... he had a very coy look that suggested he knew something we didn't. Whilst we all are unhappy with the 12.5 release (I am sure it is based upon the development of F series and clearing the shelves at Clayton) I wouldn't put it past HSV to have something up their sleeve for October?

Am more than ready to be proved wrong.

HSVGTS125
30-08-2012, 08:32 PM
If they do an anniversary GTS it'll be the first time ever so I hope they don't f@ck THAT up

richo7502000
30-08-2012, 08:35 PM
I was talking to a high level HSV guy other day, he says there will be 125 of the 25th Anniversary GTS for sale, and was very smug about the powerplant when I mentioned LSA and supercharger type comments.... Im wanting to think they will do it!!!!

Andrew_02
30-08-2012, 08:47 PM
I was talking to a high level HSV guy other day, he says there will be 125 of the 25th Anniversary GTS for sale, and was very smug about the powerplant when I mentioned LSA and supercharger type comments.... Im wanting to think they will do it!!!!
I wonder if the new car sales on the GTS and Grange have already cleared most of the stock
i don't see much if any left here in perth, i hope that means an engine change, i have heard the 6.2 is on order for a few years to come, maybe even for the standard holden V8 detuned.
if the gts and grange went well up on power, that would leave the senator off most people wish list!
i wish perth had a motor show?? to see these new cars.

SV90
30-08-2012, 10:05 PM
I dont think we will see the LSA until the VF, if we see it. The best we can probaly hope for are some more stickers and another 5 kw's. At most an exclusive colour mayby ?? similar to the GTS/R run. Hope im wrong.

They did a VE GTS 40th Anniversary, only anniversary GTS I know of.

HSVGTS125
30-08-2012, 10:13 PM
That's not an HSV anniversary though, that's a GTS anniversary commemorating something different. I'm talking 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th

Senator01
31-08-2012, 12:10 AM
I dont think we will see the LSA until the VF, if we see it. The best we can probaly hope for are some more stickers and another 5 kw's. At most an exclusive colour mayby ?? similar to the GTS/R run. Hope im wrong.

They did a VE GTS 40th Anniversary, only anniversary GTS I know of.
Daniel et al,

I hope - no, believe that HSV have something special set aside for October. For 25 years they have been the leaders in Australian performance vehicles and have always provided something as an anniversary gift. I don't believe this will change - in fact (and I am going out on a very big limb here) I think we may see the E3+ in a very different light.

Maybe not the SC version -- but a higher capacity none the less than we have seen in the past.

If I am right then kudos to me ..... if I am wrong then I will skulk away quietly into the netherworld

Senator01
31-08-2012, 12:17 AM
That's not an HSV anniversary though, that's a GTS anniversary commemorating something different. I'm talking 5th, 10th, 15th, 20th

I believe the 40th anniversary was for the GTS name .... whilst not a HSV specific anniversary .. as the GTS was built under the HSV banner in this instance I still think it has relevance and aknowledgement as any other HSV timed anniversary.

Pickles
31-08-2012, 09:27 AM
I was talking to a high level HSV guy other day, he says there will be 125 of the 25th Anniversary GTS for sale, and was very smug about the powerplant when I mentioned LSA and supercharger type comments.... Im wanting to think they will do it!!!!

I've been "predicting" (NO real inside info...just a bit of "goss" & what ya pick up around the traps!) that the S/C car would happen around that time.....all has been very quiet lately....so, I hope you're right. If it is LSA (and they have been whizzing around Lang Lang), I predict that they will sell very quickly.
Cheers, Pickles.

SV300
31-08-2012, 03:08 PM
I was talking to a high level HSV guy other day, he says there will be 125 of the 25th Anniversary GTS for sale, and was very smug about the powerplant when I mentioned LSA and supercharger type comments.... Im wanting to think they will do it!!!!

Yes was also told standard with blackout treatment, bespoke trim and wheels, engine info was a bit each way - optional package or variant but don't know if it meant LSA standard or something else but factory fit

Price was under $100k though I expect no LSA in that variant. Had opportunity to deposit as cars already allocated a while back

J



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SV90
31-08-2012, 06:13 PM
Daniel et al,

I hope - no, believe that HSV have something special set aside for October. For 25 years they have been the leaders in Australian performance vehicles and have always provided something as an anniversary gift. I don't believe this will change - in fact (and I am going out on a very big limb here) I think we may see the E3+ in a very different light.

Maybe not the SC version -- but a higher capacity none the less than we have seen in the past.

If I am right then kudos to me ..... if I am wrong then I will skulk away quietly into the netherworld


I hope you are right mate, and I am wrong. I cant put the pics up sorry, I cant get the pics off my new phone. I was given the phone and dont have the CD/ software.

richo7502000
01-09-2012, 12:10 PM
Daniel et al,


Maybe not the SC version -- but a higher capacity none the less than we have seen in the past.

If I am right then kudos to me ..... if I am wrong then I will skulk away quietly into the netherworld

My source confirmed it was definately 6.2 litre capacity still for 100% However no mention of whether that did/didn't involve forced induction lovin!!!

jkhsv
01-10-2012, 11:10 AM
Well it was worth the wait HSV.....NOT!!!!

richo7502000
01-10-2012, 11:14 AM
We got to see it last Tuesday (at the HSV owners club meeting), but we was sworn to secrecy till it was released today :D

I like it, it looks awesome...Although I am deeply dissapointed there is no LSA under the bonnet!!!

SV90
01-10-2012, 12:22 PM
Here it is

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/261826_10151234023304467_347849748_n.jpg


http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/480688_420291424695365_348335497_n.jpg

http://www.hsv.com.au/e3/home/

Another let down IMO, 125 for australia and 15 for NZ. I didnt expect much really, was hoping I was wrong :rolleyes:

HSV085
01-10-2012, 12:34 PM
Only thing it has going for are the wheels, surely HSV couldve atleast bumped up the power alittle even if it was 5-10kw but no...Fail HSV.

Sent from my GT-I9100T using Tapatalk 2

Aussie_DevilSV6
01-10-2012, 12:35 PM
so what is special about it apart from some 25 years stickers? seems just like a fully optioned GTS with some different badges, but wait we've seen that before haven't we, seems like its becoming a trend at HSV. they are either working flat out behind the scenes on something awesome that is taking up all of their resources or they have just stopped trying. i really hope its not the latter

SV90
01-10-2012, 12:58 PM
I think it is there way of moving all the cars they have sitting around the country in holding yards that are not wanted. And there is a lot. People are holding out for the VF and I guess they have to do something with them. I can only speak for myself, but I have lost interest in the newer cars and my attention is returning to the older cars. When they where a Special Vehicle. I did hope they may have done a special colour at least, maybe the new purple / black colour. I have seen several at the docks being exported as Chev's. But I guess our market isnt important enough. Its hard to stay loyal to a company that wacks some stickers on the present model and tries to pass it off as something special. I like most are starting to look at other brands, and next year will be looking for a new car. I doubt my next car will be a HSV. Sad but true. Just my opinion

go sick
01-10-2012, 02:26 PM
theres no comp any more ford sold 10,000 cars last year and holden sold 90,000 there all ready 80,000 laps out in front he he he he he

HSVGTS125
01-10-2012, 03:27 PM
That's not a reason not to build cars the customer deserves. HSV say time and time again FPV are not the competition, euro cars are. So if that's the case build something decent instead of the limp wristed POS they build and sell at a premium price.
Ford may struggle but they will turn around eventually. Holden were bankrupt during HSVs early years, and if they aren't careful HSV will end up there themselves

d488y2
01-10-2012, 08:15 PM
Here's the 25th Anniversary GTS
http://www.hsv.com.au/e3/25thAnniversaryGTS/
I like the wheels but...........Come on!!!!!!

HSVGTS125
01-10-2012, 08:26 PM
The wheels are just one more thing HSV can't be stuffed being original with. They're like mid 1990s BBS wheels. BMW even used a similar style a decade ago.

SoulJet
02-10-2012, 12:21 PM
I think it is there way of moving all the cars they have sitting around the country in holding yards that are not wanted. And there is a lot. People are holding out for the VF and I guess they have to do something with them. I can only speak for myself, but I have lost interest in the newer cars and my attention is returning to the older cars. When they where a Special Vehicle. I did hope they may have done a special colour at least, maybe the new purple / black colour. I have seen several at the docks being exported as Chev's. But I guess our market isnt important enough. Its hard to stay loyal to a company that wacks some stickers on the present model and tries to pass it off as something special. I like most are starting to look at other brands, and next year will be looking for a new car. I doubt my next car will be a HSV. Sad but true. Just my opinion

Nail on the head there mate. I'm very happy with my 3 old hsv's and still loyal to the brand prior to VE. It feels so weird to have such a strong passion for these cars before 2006 and have such a strong dislike for them after!
In saying that though, they could always win me back if they got some new management and returned to the original company goals.

Senator01
02-10-2012, 05:42 PM
[QUOTE=SoulJet;96021]It feels so weird to have such a strong passion for these cars before 2006 and have such a strong dislike for them after!
QUOTE]

Is that a dislike for HSV in general or just for the current post '06 crop of vehicles??

SoulJet
02-10-2012, 05:52 PM
Just the post 06 vehicles. I think it was the second they announced the VE range when the GTS got the same engine as the clubsport. W427 got me interested again for a little bit but that's been about it sadly.

Senator01
02-10-2012, 06:56 PM
I guess at the end of the day HSV have to work with the legacy vehicles that Holden design and build. Regardless of what era I think they do a good job. Yes, we all have opinions of what they should and shouldn't build but in the end we all wanted and got one, and I bet all of you, like me had a smile when you first drove one ... and in May 2014 when I get my next one ... my smile will be bigger than ever..

HSV - one Shanghai Mica VF S/C Senator to go please!!!

Pickles
02-10-2012, 07:40 PM
I guess at the end of the day HSV have to work with the legacy vehicles that Holden design and build. Regardless of what era I think they do a good job. Yes, we all have opinions of what they should and shouldn't build but in the end we all wanted and got one, and I bet all of you, like me had a smile when you first drove one ... and in May 2014 when I get my next one ... my smile will be bigger than ever..

HSV - one Shanghai Mica VF S/C Senator to go please!!!
Mate, that is a very fair post.
I don't own an HSV at the moment, & I don't like their "sticker specials" at all.
Having said that, I believe they produce a bloody good car. Look, I'm unhappy with the 25th Anniv car,...surely with only 140 units they wouldn't have had to worry about "selling them all"....geez, I reckon a limited edition (140) S/C "machine", would've flown out the door "at the speed of a thousand gazelles".
But what would I know?....in truth...S.F.A.
So, I don't understand the marketing, I think the 25th Anniv car was a big disappointment.....but the product is still way above the opposition...which despite Mr. Harding's statement, is still....FPV.
Perhaps with a little more "competition" from FPV, HSV would be forced to "lift their game".....but that "competition" ain't there.......Look at the sales figures.....they don't lie...HSV is more than holding their own....Is FPV making dollars?.....With their sales figures....how could they be?
So, whilst I'm a little "under-impressed" at the moment......roll on VF.....I reckon it'll all happen then.
In the meantime, let's see how long it takes to sell the 25th Anniv GTS...does anyone know what one has to pay for one of these?
Cheers, Pickles.
pressed"

HSVGTS125
02-10-2012, 09:10 PM
FPV build a good car period! Sales figures just don't show it unfortunately. If sales figures show the best quality car on the market it would say Mazda 3. And we know it's not better, it just sells best.

HSV has a long reputation on their side, but as sh!t like this gets churned out year after year it won't take long for people to work out they're paying a premium price over a perfectly good donor car from holden for no reason.
HSV should be watching their back, their undoing may not be FPV but themselves. They need criticism from the people who buy them, I won't buy one until they improve their product and at the moment they obviously don't want my money and there are a lot more former owners who won't buy one either.

SV90
02-10-2012, 09:32 PM
Mate, that is a very fair post.
I don't own an HSV at the moment, & I don't like their "sticker specials" at all.
Having said that, I believe they produce a bloody good car. Look, I'm unhappy with the 25th Anniv car,...surely with only 140 units they wouldn't have had to worry about "selling them all"....geez, I reckon a limited edition (140) S/C "machine", would've flown out the door "at the speed of a thousand gazelles".
But what would I know?....in truth...S.F.A.
So, I don't understand the marketing, I think the 25th Anniv car was a big disappointment.....but the product is still way above the opposition...which despite Mr. Harding's statement, is still....FPV.
Perhaps with a little more "competition" from FPV, HSV would be forced to "lift their game".....but that "competition" ain't there.......Look at the sales figures.....they don't lie...HSV is more than holding their own....Is FPV making dollars?.....With their sales figures....how could they be?
So, whilst I'm a little "under-impressed" at the moment......roll on VF.....I reckon it'll all happen then.
In the meantime, let's see how long it takes to sell the 25th Anniv GTS...does anyone know what one has to pay for one of these?
Cheers, Pickles.
pressed"

Direct info from HSV

HSV has released details of its 25th Anniversary GTS model. Comes with new-style forged 20in alloys, six-pot brakes, unique appearence tweaks and lobs in at $84,990 in manual form. Powertrain remains unchanged over regular GTS/Clubbie R8.

VX15ANNIV
02-10-2012, 10:57 PM
Wow there must be a lot of late model HSV owners on this forum biting there tongue at the moment, the level of negativity towards the current model/models has grown to fever pitch from some forum members on certain threads.
To me the series 3 has to be one of the most aggressive distinctive sensational looking cars on our roads today, if they drive as well as they look then what a package.
Sure it would have been nice if the 25th had some major differences like a S.C but IMO the current models are still a very good package, and let's face it anyone in the market for a new car now will be waiting on the VF.

HSVGTS125
02-10-2012, 11:35 PM
They don't need to bite their tongue.
HSV have built great cars, some (like me) don't feel it extends past VZ. I like the W427, but nothing else in the E series range. It's only my opinion and I'm sure most if not all HSV owners who came to the brand during the E Series would wonder why there is fuss over the older cars. It's all an opinion, nothing more.
My skin is thick, I have owned 2 of the most controverstisl cars in modern Australian motoring (walkinshaw and AU) and it doesn't bother me if people don't like either, just as long as its not a personal attack on me or my direct things. But go for it if u don't like the model, after all I didn't design it and I can't make u like it.
But for the longest running unbroken australian performance brand to come out with this 25th anniversary car is somewhat less than what is deserved. 25 years is a long time and if the VF is what's holding HSV back from making a decent anniversary model then they should of waited a year and released it in 2013 to celebrate 25 years of building cars which would then coincide with the original 5th and 10th anniversary cars of 1993 and 1998 instead of the 2002/ 2007 anniversary models which celebrated the beginning of the company.

SV90
03-10-2012, 08:22 AM
I dont hate the VE's at all. I really like the Maloo's. The W427 wasnt that great in my opinion, 155k for nothing more than a 7.0 and some body mods. It drives like any other clubby until you get the revs up and then you know its a little different. Not 155k different. Mayby in 30 years they might collectable, but going by the recent market and how many have been for sale. Owners have had to take a big drop to sell them. They had it right with the HRT 427 coupe IMO, that was special.

Reguarding Ford, the do make some nice cars ( black Series and the F6 ) one thing they do have is a great range of cars and motor variations. There fans wanted a turbo they built one, they wanted a supercharged GT they did it. I was speaking to a man at Ford the other day reguarding the new GT r spec. Sorry, but that thing is terrible, built to similar stylings as the Luguna mustang in the states. The car is the same as the HSV's, basically a sticker pack. A black car with a red rear wing, red mirrors and high lights around the grille. It looks hideous in the flesh and the wheels, terrible. NO engine mods, It seems to be a trend at the moment for both companys to do these packages.

My biggest problem with the VE's is the paint finish, they are orange peeled to hell. It looks terrible, a lot of the new cars even BMW are similar. I was speaking with a mate who has a E3 the other night and he even commented that his missus 20 k Hyundai had less peel in the paint than his car. I dont think its good enough for what you pay. And the general finish of the cars could be better, sure in that price range and market there isnt much to compete and HSV and FPV have been lucky in that respect. But it wont last for ever and if they dont lift there standards, I wish them luck in the future.

Another thing that a lot of people dont know, is that when the base car is made on the line approximatly there is a HSV base coming thru in every 50 cars. You can tell as they have black bumpers and bright yellow stockys. A lot of these come thru with faults, now Holdens dont have the infastructure to fix them there. They then outsource the cars to local Paint and panel shops ( i know of 2 ) Its sad that the car has already been in and outside panels shop for repairs before being shipped to Clayton to be assembled. I really hope that the VF HSV's will be different, we will have to wait and see. Again just my opinion, but come on HSV start listening to the Australian market and dont be so concerned with the export market. John Crennan and his team had the right idea, but the latest management dont seem to care really.

Ronnie
03-10-2012, 10:30 AM
Reguarding Ford, the do make some nice cars ( black Series and the F6 ) one thing they do have is a great range of cars and motor variations. There fans wanted a turbo they built one, they wanted a supercharged GT they did it. I was speaking to a man at Ford the other day reguarding the new GT r spec. Sorry, but that thing is terrible, built to similar stylings as the Luguna mustang in the states. The car is the same as the HSV's, basically a sticker pack. A black car with a red rear wing, red mirrors and high lights around the grille. It looks hideous in the flesh and the wheels, terrible. NO engine mods, It seems to be a trend at the moment for both companys to do these packages.



Gotta disagree there, FPV at least changed the suspension put fatter wheels on the rear, which is exactly what customers and journo's have been asking for since the release of the Boss 335.

Pickles
03-10-2012, 10:36 AM
Gotta disagree there, FPV at least changed the suspension put fatter wheels on the rear, which is exactly what customers and journo's have been asking for since the release of the Boss 335.
"Suspension/fatter wheels"....of course you're right....that is EXACTLY what they've done, BUT....the only time this makes any difference.....is in a staight line. Cornering/chassis/engine "flexibility" is still lacking...read the latest wheels!!
One thing that is NOT lacking is power....problem is, the chassis ain't up to it.
And hey, I don't drive an HSV either!....so I ain't biassed!
Cheers, Pickles.

Ronnie
03-10-2012, 11:13 AM
"Suspension/fatter wheels"....of course you're right....that is EXACTLY what they've done, BUT....the only time this makes any difference.....is in a staight line. Cornering/chassis/engine "flexibility" is still lacking...read the latest wheels!!
One thing that is NOT lacking is power....problem is, the chassis ain't up to it.
And hey, I don't drive an HSV either!....so I ain't biassed!
Cheers, Pickles.

I meant it as, at least FPV are starting to listen to their customers, I've haven't driven an R-Spec GT, or an E3 HSV. But I've driven regualar GT's with a Boss 335, and E2 HSV's. If I were to purchase a brand new car tomorrow, I'm afraid it won't be the one with the lion badge.

Pickles
03-10-2012, 11:17 AM
I meant it as, at least FPV are starting to listen to their customers, I've haven't driven an R-Spec GT, or an E3 HSV. But I've driven regualar GT's with a Boss 335, and E2 HSV's. If I were to purchase a brand new car tomorrow, I'm afraid it won't be the one with the lion badge.
Gotta agree with you there.
As far as "customers" is concerned, I wonder how HSV/FPV sales are going....anyone got info?
Cheers, Pickles.

d488y2
03-10-2012, 12:36 PM
QUOTE=Pickles;96070]Gotta agree with you there.
As far as "customers" is concerned, I wonder how HSV/FPV sales are going....anyone got info?
Cheers, Pickles.[/QUOTE]

Found this on Drive.com

According to sales figures for the first seven months of 2012, HSV has sold 1578 cars versus FPVs tally of 770 for the same period.

More of the Story here
http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/fpv-future-still-unclear-20120814-2462a.html[

SoulJet
03-10-2012, 01:37 PM
They don't need to bite their tongue.
HSV have built great cars, some (like me) don't feel it extends past VZ. I like the W427, but nothing else in the E series range. It's only my opinion and I'm sure most if not all HSV owners who came to the brand during the E Series would wonder why there is fuss over the older cars. It's all an opinion, nothing more.
My skin is thick, I have owned 2 of the most controverstisl cars in modern Australian motoring (walkinshaw and AU) and it doesn't bother me if people don't like either, just as long as its not a personal attack on me or my direct things. But go for it if u don't like the model, after all I didn't design it and I can't make u like it.
But for the longest running unbroken australian performance brand to come out with this 25th anniversary car is somewhat less than what is deserved. 25 years is a long time and if the VF is what's holding HSV back from making a decent anniversary model then they should of waited a year and released it in 2013 to celebrate 25 years of building cars which would then coincide with the original 5th and 10th anniversary cars of 1993 and 1998 instead of the 2002/ 2007 anniversary models which celebrated the beginning of the company.

I think that's well said. I sure as hell don't have anything against E series owners at all. It's just my opinion on where HSV as a company are heading and what their goals are compared to the Crennan years. In my very humble opinion, it feels like they're standing on the shoulders of the first 15-20 years and no longer pushing boundaries.
As much as everyone says power and straight line performance aren't hugely important now, it seemed extremely important when HSV was significantly ahead of FPV in previous years. Why has that attitude changed since FPV are now quicker?
It's hard to look back and see the power jump from GTS models in the 8 years from 1992 to 2000 being 100kw, and then see the power jump for the next 12 years only go up 25kw while the cars get heavier and heavier.

moray066
03-10-2012, 02:45 PM
Very true, I believe the add for the VL group A Walkinshaw was "welcome to the 6 second club" indicative of its 0-100 time!
I agree with some of the comments made, but where I disagree is how is a VR/S/T Clubsport/GTS/Senator any less or any more special then a VE Clubsport/GTS/Senator? Will we, in 20 years be looking back and saying (if they are still around) HSV don't make cars the way they used to, referring back to the VE, things change and not everyone is going to be happy, yes, I agree the cars are in no way as "unique" as their predecessors, but I feel they lost that a long time ago, well before the VE.
In reference to the power, its easy to play with numbers and timelines. Lets see, from 1988 (Walkinshaw) 184kw to 1997 VT GTS 220kw, so that's only 36kw over the 9 years with only a 5kw jump from 1990 (VN group A) to 1997?
So this "small increases" over a period of time is nothing new.
The significant jump in the GTS model, 220-300kw came only as a result of the engine change from Holden to Chev
So really the GTS running the "Holden" engine only varied 25kw at most if you include the HRT optimised version of the 5.7lt. And now with the LS engines its been much the same.
Will there be a significant jump with the next generation of motors, I think everyone has their fingers crossed

SoulJet
03-10-2012, 03:01 PM
I don't think HSV will be around in 20 years but I can see your point. There's just so many E series on the roads that they no longer feel special to me any more. Back when the VP-VT were new I was thinking "Awesome there's one of those new GTS/Senator's. There's only so many of them getting around". No longer the case unfortunately.

Regarding the power figure quotes, I was simply referring to the GTS (supposedly the performance flagship). I find it a very sad state of affairs. Would any one here think Crennan would have allowed the GTS to get beaten in a straight line comparison with FPV if he were still in charge? More importantly, is anyone here happy about it?

Ronnie
03-10-2012, 05:13 PM
I don't think HSV will be around in 20 years but I can see your point. There's just so many E series on the roads that they no longer feel special to me any more. Back when the VP-VT were new I was thinking "Awesome there's one of those new GTS/Senator's. There's only so many of them getting around". No longer the case unfortunately.

Regarding the power figure quotes, I was simply referring to the GTS (supposedly the performance flagship). I find it a very sad state of affairs. Would any one here think Crennan would have allowed the GTS to get beaten in a straight line comparison with FPV if he were still in charge? More importantly, is anyone here happy about it?

Wasn't that the reason Brad Dunstan apparently left HSV, as he thought they lost their exclusiveness?

HSVGTS125
03-10-2012, 06:15 PM
Very true, I believe the add for the VL group A Walkinshaw was "welcome to the 6 second club" indicative of its 0-100 time!
I agree with some of the comments made, but where I disagree is how is a VR/S/T Clubsport/GTS/Senator any less or any more special then a VE Clubsport/GTS/Senator? Will we, in 20 years be looking back and saying (if they are still around) HSV don't make cars the way they used to, referring back to the VE, things change and not everyone is going to be happy, yes, I agree the cars are in no way as "unique" as their predecessors, but I feel they lost that a long time ago, well before the VE.
In reference to the power, its easy to play with numbers and timelines. Lets see, from 1988 (Walkinshaw) 184kw to 1997 VT GTS 220kw, so that's only 36kw over the 9 years with only a 5kw jump from 1990 (VN group A) to 1997?
So this "small increases" over a period of time is nothing new.
The significant jump in the GTS model, 220-300kw came only as a result of the engine change from Holden to Chev
So really the GTS running the "Holden" engine only varied 25kw at most if you include the HRT optimised version of the 5.7lt. And now with the LS engines its been much the same.
Will there be a significant jump with the next generation of motors, I think everyone has their fingers crossed

Walkinshaw was 180kw not 184, and a Holden. Not an HSV!
VR to VT were stroker engines, the first time ever done to a factory Holden based engine mated along to a nicer 6 speed manual than the old zf in Group A. This along with hydratrak was Big news in 1994. Yes it got boring by VT, but VT brought massive brakes, new seats and continued with integrating the styling which VE lacks. yes VE continue with old formulas to an extent but it's not exciting ground breaking stuff anymore.
Also HSV didn't actually have a rival as such back then. The BMW and Mercedes they were compared with were rather lacking in performance at times, but HSV were regularly embarrassed by the much cheaper WRX which didn't bother HSV coz apparently that performance market wasn't their target. These days all the budget cars from overseas have luxury up to and beyond expensive HSV cars and aren't too bad in the performance area either, something the VN-VS HSV didn't need to worry about.

Look at benchmark cars HSV built, SV5000- it had no local comp. same as clubsport to caprice 215i. The closest thing they had was an EB GT and EL GT 5 years apart. And the slower EL GT got both Allan Moffat AND Peter Brock's approval as the best aussie musle car. And that was over XY GT, VN Group A, VH group 3, charger, GTSR, and more. 2 men well qualified to make that call. AU had T Series but unfortunately marketing was out of Tickfords hands and ford sold them rather boringly. Until T3. But by then it was too late.

Today HSV have a lot more competition from everywhere and they haven't raised the bar like years gone by. Love them or hate them Ford sell either an XR6T and G6ET with over 530Nm torque that have very good acceleration then there is the slowest FPV - the F6 to the New R-Spec GT, all of which are great performance cars and depending which side of the fence u sit are all good products. The whole line up is either force fed by supercharger or turbo, a good marketing stragety Much like HSV's stroker engines and 6 speeds in the 90s. Ford is not selling well because they are still carrying unwanted baggage they inherited in their boring days. This is an area HSV will come to know well if they don't lift their act. Not only is the blue oval product good but look at holden's own SS and SSV. Why spend the extra on hsv when there is a cheaper option almost from within?

hsv.286
03-10-2012, 07:49 PM
Slightly off topic but My ve gts 6th birthday this month..:) altho it's not the 307kw it started out as I still love it to bits,great fun to drive and won't ever part with it! I bought it originally cos I always wanted a hsv and still happy with mine.times change as with all models and improvements added over time.what I'm trying to say is "I just got one" ..end rant..:)

HSVGTS125
03-10-2012, 09:33 PM
The E1 is the nicest looking of the E-Series. Well done HSV.286

moray066
03-10-2012, 10:39 PM
Walkinshaw was 180kw not 184, and a Holden. Not an HSV!
VR to VT were stroker engines, the first time ever done to a factory Holden based engine mated along to a nicer 6 speed manual than the old zf in Group A. This along with hydratrak was Big news in 1994. Yes it got boring by VT, but VT brought massive brakes, new seats and continued with integrating the styling which VE lacks. yes VE continue with old formulas to an extent but it's not exciting ground breaking stuff anymore.
Also HSV didn't actually have a rival as such back then. The BMW and Mercedes they were compared with were rather lacking in performance at times, but HSV were regularly embarrassed by the much cheaper WRX which didn't bother HSV coz apparently that performance market wasn't their target. These days all the budget cars from overseas have luxury up to and beyond expensive HSV cars and aren't too bad in the performance area either, something the VN-VS HSV didn't need to worry about.

Look at benchmark cars HSV built, SV5000- it had no local comp. same as clubsport to caprice 215i. The closest thing they had was an EB GT and EL GT 5 years apart. And the slower EL GT got both Allan Moffat AND Peter Brock's approval as the best aussie musle car. And that was over XY GT, VN Group A, VH group 3, charger, GTSR, and more. 2 men well qualified to make that call. AU had T Series but unfortunately marketing was out of Tickfords hands and ford sold them rather boringly. Until T3. But by then it was too late.

Today HSV have a lot more competition from everywhere and they haven't raised the bar like years gone by. Love them or hate them Ford sell either an XR6T and G6ET with over 530Nm torque that have very good acceleration then there is the slowest FPV - the F6 to the New R-Spec GT, all of which are great performance cars and depending which side of the fence u sit are all good products. The whole line up is either force fed by supercharger or turbo, a good marketing stragety Much like HSV's stroker engines and 6 speeds in the 90s. Ford is not selling well because they are still carrying unwanted baggage they inherited in their boring days. This is an area HSV will come to know well if they don't lift their act. Not only is the blue oval product good but look at holden's own SS and SSV. Why spend the extra on hsv when there is a cheaper option almost from within?


OK, no need to attack me with your knowledge, sorry for the mistake, I'll never make it again! Actually when I quoted the 184kw figure for the Holden SV Group A Commodore, I was at work, I had a long hard think about it, knowing that YOU would say something, I remember the power figures to be published as both 180kw is some articles and 184kw in others, I choose to go with the latter as it better suited my argument at the time. lol I have checked through all my literature and you are right the final published figure by Holden Special Vehicles was 180kw. (If you like I will edit my post to reflect this)
As for the "Its no an HSV its a Holden" well Im sure thats what the "H" in HSV stands for, correct me if I'm wrong here? The car is recognised as the first HSV, so get over yourself, saying it's NOT HSV is really clutching at straws isn't it, wasn't the car contracted out to (at the time) Special Vehicles department (now known as HSV) to build? It has a HSV compliance plate and is referred to in almost every publishing as the HSV VL Group A Walkinshaw. Answer me this, if I wanted info on a particular 1988 Vl Group A, would I be calling Holden or HSV?
If it is in fact Holden and NOT at all HSV, why is the car featured in every HSV history article, including the up coming 25 years of HSV DVD, which I believe your one is in? Why would it feature in a HSV documentary if its not a HSV?
Anyway Im about to post a number of published articles in which the 1988 VL Group A commodore is referred to as the HSV VL Group A, then you can have your hissy fit and quote "I'll never buy, read or post on anything linked directly to HSV again" end quote
In reference to your comments about the VE, well HSV have been targeting the European cars for some time now, I have too many tests by wheels/motor/car Australia where VR/VS/VT/VX up to current models up against Europe's finest, with varying outcomes, the Holden's never quite had the refinement but its always been the same story, bang for buck. The VE is quoted as having the best platform with the most refined chassis and has done well against the likes of Mercedes AMG, BMW M cars and Audi. You say they haven't raised the bar enough, where do you want the bar? The higher the bar, the more expensive the car will be, if they dont sell cars well... You have an 80k car going up against cars which are in excess of 200k, of course its going to fall short in some areas. Also I dont understand people that say, "You see too many VE HSV's on the road" Well they are the current crop of cars, of course your going to see more, but as they get older, some will go missing :( others written off, some destroyed by owners, run into the ground, you wont see them as much. Look I agree in this sense, as much as it burns me to say this, as unlike yourself I'm truly loyal to the brand and will never own a F*%D, you are right, the current crop of FPV's are a better performance package then the current crop of HSV's and Pickels, I know your going to say "Take them to a track, the HSV will win." I have driven the F6, I havent driven the new S/C GT but the F6 as a drivers car offers an exhilarating drive that neither the VZ Clubsport R8 or standard VE E3 Clubsport R8 that I drove gives. I cant compare to any other models as thats what I have driven. A Standard F6 is almost as exhilarating as my S/C LS3 powered clubsport, thats my opinion, not everyone will feel the same, but thats me. The FPV's are good, but I dont like Ford, however I am mature enough to give credit, where credit is due.
hsvgts125, Ive had a couple of digs at you throughout this novel of a post but if you want to dish it out, be prepared to take some back!
No hard feelings
Cheers,
Moray

moray066
03-10-2012, 10:41 PM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_0419_zpsb9e3cf0d.jpg

moray066
03-10-2012, 10:42 PM
here Walkinshaw referred to as 184kw as apparently claimed by HSV?

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_0412_zpsc547d3ba.jpg

moray066
03-10-2012, 10:44 PM
here published as 180kw, 0-100 in 6.5seconds!
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_0421_zpsd4795572.jpg

Senator01
03-10-2012, 10:45 PM
Hang on ... didn't someone recently state the Walky was a Holden and not a HSV???

moray066
03-10-2012, 10:45 PM
again referred to as HSV

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_0413_zpsa0b1f679.jpg

moray066
03-10-2012, 10:46 PM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_0418_zpsf0eef1c1.jpg

moray066
03-10-2012, 10:47 PM
HSV article with the Walky featured? Dont understand if its not a HSV why its here?
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_0423_zps92456ac6.jpg

Senator01
03-10-2012, 10:48 PM
Well blow me down ... how did this happen?? The Walky a HSV and not a Holden??? Blasphemy?? Outrageous!!

moray066
03-10-2012, 10:49 PM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_0423_zps92456ac6.jpg

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_0415_zpsbe576443.jpg

Something special was happening at HSV in 1987? Thats the first line?

Senator01
03-10-2012, 10:52 PM
My god ... it even has a HSV badge on the bonnet??? WTF ... where's my lawyer..

220isenator
03-10-2012, 10:53 PM
I understand the real meaning of your signature now Moray. ;)

moray066
03-10-2012, 10:54 PM
Hang on ... didn't someone recently state the Walky was a Holden and not a HSV???

I believe all Clubsports, GTS, Grange even the W427 are Holden's :)
As I said unless I'm wrong I believe that's what the "H" stands for in HSV, or was it Honda? lol

220isenator
03-10-2012, 10:55 PM
The Holden Commodore SS Group A was a series of four motor vehicles built by Australian manufacturer Holden and then heavily modified by Holden's official performance tuner, originally the Holden Dealer Team, then later Holden Special Vehicles. The SS Group A series of cars existed primarily as a homologation special, created specifically so a racing optimised version of the Holden Commodore could be utilised for Group A touring car motor racing. The regulations set down by the international governing body FISA for Group A motor racing specified that a minimum of 500 cars were to be built to a certain specification prior to said vehicle being allowed to compete. Group A regulations governed many touring car series at the 1980s and 1990s including series in Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, Japan, Italy, Germany and the European Touring Car Championship as well as the one-off 1987 World Touring Car Championship as well as significant races like the Bathurst 1000, Spa 24 Hours and the RAC Tourist Trophy. The SS Group A model run ran from 1986 until 1992. The four models have since become highly collectible amongst Holden and performance enthusiasts.

Unique amongst all products produced by both the Holden Dealer Team and Holden Special Vehicles, these cars were referred to as Holdens, rather than as HDTs or HSVs

This is the truth though.

moray066
03-10-2012, 10:56 PM
I understand the real meaning of your signature now Moray. ;)

LOL, yeah thanks 220i

Senator01
03-10-2012, 10:56 PM
Sarcasm ... I LOVE it ...;)

HSVGTS125
03-10-2012, 11:01 PM
Motoring magazines called it an HSV, they also called an SV5000 a holden.

Now a few history lessons. The Group A was built under contract for Holden in a joint venture. Meaning it was always a Holden, HSV finished it off as Holden or any other primary manufacturer was not allowed to build Group A cars, including the HDT days. So it is a Holden car, not an HSV.

Secondly, 180kw is the official power output by Holden. The logbook shows that which is more accurate than modern motor or any other publication in the day.

No one disputes the 6 second part, but since u went ahead and printed the advertisement you should also see where that figure originally came from. It was from a pre production Bryce engineering non body kitted standard VL with full Group A running gear. Which made the car more than 80kg lighter than the production car that probably never saw 6.5 second 0-100.

moray066
03-10-2012, 11:05 PM
This is the truth though.

Who referred to them as Holdens? not the press and definitely not the owners, well except one, that I know of ;)

HSVGTS125
03-10-2012, 11:08 PM
The use of Holden in HSV was originally paid a royalty. As the company is separate. Yes HSV emblems on walkinshaws do confuse the ignorant, but if you know your history of these cars you will know they are a Holden. John Crennan even mentions this in his HSV interview. He always mentioned it as a Holden built under contract by HSV.

moray066
03-10-2012, 11:09 PM
Motoring magazines called it an HSV, they also called an SV5000 a holden.

Now a few history lessons. The Group A was built under contract for Holden in a joint venture. Meaning it was always a Holden, HSV finished it off as Holden or any other primary manufacturer was not allowed to build Group A cars, including the HDT days. So it is a Holden car, not an HSV.

Secondly, 180kw is the official power output by Holden. The logbook shows that which is more accurate than modern motor or any other publication in the day.

No one disputes the 6 second part, but since u went ahead and printed the advertisement you should also see where that figure originally came from. It was from a pre production Bryce engineering non body kitted standard VL with full Group A running gear. Which made the car more than 80kg lighter than the production car that probably never saw 6.5 second 0-100.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_0416_zpsb70c7c42.jpg
This one, yes I did know this, have read the article, most production Walky's were closer to 7 flat, I think and this is from memory, so dont shoot me down here! But please correct me if I'm wrong. The best pass from the group a was a 6.8 in street trim

moray066
03-10-2012, 11:11 PM
This pass ran a 6.7, but look at all the shit in the car, probably had 1/2 a tank of fuel as well, dont need that much to drive for less then 7 seconds! lol

moray066
03-10-2012, 11:16 PM
hsvgts125, Im not disputing the power, you are right, its 180kw, I was mistaken, like I said, was going from memory and as I have read many articles, some of which referred to it as 184kw, I couldn't remember which was the correct one, for some reason I thought the original sales add stated 184kw, but it does not, its 180kw.
.

HSVGTS125
03-10-2012, 11:23 PM
Yes that is the car

Now there is not much I do not know about this car. I researched it well and have very good knowlegde of these early cars especially the walkinshaw. I know they aren't and never have been a HSV model. Yes they are referred to as an HSV but it's incorrect. Just as a vk or VL is not an HDT Group A, the cars always belonged to Holden.
As for the "fissy fit" it's to do with changing history by what I believed to be an HSV doco featuring the first Holden/ HSV built Group A with photos of a prototype with solid C-pillar. #001 now features that c pillar which I hate because it never had it to begin with and even from a street commodores photo showing "001 complete with solid c pillar" is misleading.
It's a passion of mine, and I like to keep its history honest.

HSVGTS125
03-10-2012, 11:26 PM
With sarcasm about walkinshaws having HSV emblems what about the VN Group A with Holden badges on the wheels? They were designed in house by mike simcoe who worked for Holden, not HSV

moray066
03-10-2012, 11:31 PM
The use of Holden in HSV was originally paid a royalty. As the company is separate. Yes HSV emblems on walkinshaws do confuse the ignorant, but if you know your history of these cars you will know they are a Holden. John Crennan even mentions this in his HSV interview. He always mentioned it as a Holden built under contract by HSV.

Ok, now I'm ignorant :( you forgot to mention the HSV build plate under the bonnet, it also does a good job of confusing the ignorant. Seriously if HSV had the contract to build these cars and weren't they sold under the "SV" brand, does this not make it a "HSV" by default? Ok the car was designed by Holden, but put together, badged and sold as HSV? but its not HSV? Referred to in all HSV history doco's as the first HSV, but its not HSV? OK now I'm really confused????????????????
.
Basically, Holden made this car happen, HSV just claimed the glory, well Crennan didn't, obviously he was an honourable man, but the fact is, it is badged and wears the plate of HSV, does it not? Unlike the VN group A which was all Holden and no sign of HSV anywhere, the Walky wears HSV all over it.

moray066
03-10-2012, 11:34 PM
With sarcasm about walkinshaws having HSV emblems what about the VN Group A with Holden badges on the wheels? They were designed in house by mike simcoe who worked for Holden, not HSV

The VN Group A was all Holden, you know that, dont make me dig up my articles on that, you know Holden kept that to themselves, thats why it didn't win Bathurst, didnt have the HSV touch! :)

HSVGTS125
03-10-2012, 11:46 PM
Ignorant to history, as in not knowing. I'm not calling you an ignorant person.
Now both the VN and VL are Holden. That is it. Same rules applied to both cars (all 4 Group As actually).
The build plaque under the bonnet show it had work done at HSV. Look at a VN police pursuit car and you will see the same. It also isn't an HSV but work was carried out by HSV so they wear the tag.

Now the walkinshaw was already being developed long before HSV came on the scene. Meaning if Tom walkinshaw didn't win the contract that car would still have been made. Maybe not as wild looking but what makes it run and stop were already there. If you want parts for these cars you go to Holden parts guide, including the plenum chamber for the twin throttle body. Today things are listed as HSV to avaoid confusion but it's incorrect. As for the history, HSV started out finishing the Group A, so it makes sense their story begins with the walkinshaw and not the SV88. But as said before it is built under contract, it is not an HSV

moray066
03-10-2012, 11:46 PM
Yes that is the car

Now there is not much I do not know about this car. I researched it well and have very good knowlegde of these early cars especially the walkinshaw. I know they aren't and never have been a HSV model. Yes they are referred to as an HSV but it's incorrect. Just as a vk or VL is not an HDT Group A, the cars always belonged to Holden.
As for the "fissy fit" it's to do with changing history by what I believed to be an HSV doco featuring the first Holden/ HSV built Group A with photos of a prototype with solid C-pillar. #001 now features that c pillar which I hate because it never had it to begin with and even from a street commodores photo showing "001 complete with solid c pillar" is misleading.
It's a passion of mine, and I like to keep its history honest.
.
Oh I give up, I totally understand your quote about misleading and agree with you 100%. I will say I do have a couple of articles where the Walky is referred to as Holden VL SS Group A, but I didnt post them as they dont help my argument! lol
But 95% of published documents call it a HSV. It is a Holden, HSV or not, its a Holden, they are an awesome machine, my favourite, as you probably know, my old man owned number 412, was stolen about 10 years ago, still has not been recovered. I owned number 066 but sold it out of stupidity! Regardless of what it is it will always be my favourite motor vehicle, I will never forget watching the 1990 bathurst 1000, I hated the Nissans, with a passions! I was ecstatic when Grice/Percy won, a moment I will never forget.
Question for you, well if the Walky is not a HSV, what is the first HSV produced?
also when HSV celebrate things like 10,000th car built, do they include the 750 VL Group A's?

HSVGTS125
03-10-2012, 11:54 PM
I just answered HSV first actual model, the SV88.
HSV include the walkinshaw and VN Group A in their tally but they state "built under contract".
I didn't accept walkinshaws as holdens for years but I realised whether I agree or not it is an Holden. And could be bought anywhere unlike an HSV.

moray066
03-10-2012, 11:56 PM
before I go to bed, also found this, you probably have it but I'll post anyway.
Thanks for the history lesson,
Moray

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_0422_zps4d94d680.jpg

WPGTS-E3
03-10-2012, 11:57 PM
www.hsv.com.au/e3/25years/Moment3.aspx

moray066
04-10-2012, 12:01 AM
I just answered HSV first actual model, the SV88.
HSV include the walkinshaw and VN Group A in their tally but they state "built under contract".
I didn't accept walkinshaws as holdens for years but I realised whether I agree or not it is an Holden. And could be bought anywhere unlike an HSV.

Why try and distant HSV from Holden anyway, it is essentially a Holden. Its like the argument you had with the member who didnt like his XR6 referred to as a Falcon, its a falcon! WTF??

moray066
04-10-2012, 12:03 AM
www.hsv.com.au/e3/25years/Moment3.aspx

so technically...lol

WPGTS-E3
04-10-2012, 12:07 AM
Here's another one www.hsv.com.au/e3/25years/Moment2.aspx

HSVGTS125
04-10-2012, 12:09 AM
www.hsv.com.au/e3/25years/Moment3.aspx

Very well done. And from the website too.

Moray066 I'm not distancing HSV from Holden, Group A was a very political era. The reason it is a Holden is because Holden was the primary manufacturer and they wanted a product for all Holden teams to race but aren't allowed to directly fund the program. So the joint venture started with HSV to build them as a secondary manufacturer based on a car already built. HSV didn't own the car so all teams could access this design and race it. HSV added there own car the HSV dealer team

HSVGTS125
04-10-2012, 12:11 AM
Read the wording moray066, technically the first vehicle HSV worked on..... Not owned or developed

moray066
04-10-2012, 12:43 AM
Read the wording moray066, technically the first vehicle HSV worked on..... Not owned or developed

Technically, the first official model HSV worked on was the Holden-engineered VL Group A, however it wasn’t until the VL Calais SV88 that HSV actually designed and engineered the vehicle – hence the confusion at times when discussing HSV’s first vehicle.
.
Does not say anything about ownership, says the Walky was technically HSV's first vehicle, but was developed by Holden.
But I don't dispute you in relation to the ownership issue for racing, etc
I am surprised about HSV counting the VN Grp A in their numbers, are they HSV plated? I thought that whole production was done by Holden? Hence no HSV badges in sight on that car?

WPGTS-E3
04-10-2012, 12:49 AM
VN Grp A www.hsv.com.au/e3/see/Classics.aspx?PageID=Performance&Series=VN&Model=SSGroupA

richo7502000
04-10-2012, 02:03 AM
When we was at the Vic HSVOC meeting the other week, Phill Harding (HSV managing director for the unknowing...) did a presentation to us on HSV's 25th Anniversary.
He stated to us that the actual anniversary of HSV's birth was particularly difficult, due to dates when the company was registered and all the legal mumbo jumbo that went along with it.
However he did make the statement that the SV88 was "officially HSVs first car"... and that the the VL Group A (Walky) as has been said here was actually a Holden that HSV had helped with its development and Holden utilised HSV's ability to install add ons more easily away from the Holden production line facility to assist in its manufacture.
Where as the VN group A was developed in a special area behind the Holden production line where most of the mods took place, so that was actually more of a Holden in reality, but the VL group A also "technically" was a Holden too.
I know thats the line you guys are also saying...just interesting to hear the way HSV themselves looked at it!

HSVGTS125
04-10-2012, 06:13 AM
"Technically the first vehicle they worked on"..... That's all. They completed it. End of story. Not their car. I can't believe u still think its an HSV after reading what HSV state. Like I said, walkinshaw would be built whether HSV won the contract or not.
VN Group A is the same. HSV badge on the grill and steering wheel, HSV tag under bonnet.
But read the above post and if you don't like phill Harding stating its a Holden maybe buy the DVD from a few years ago and hear John Crennan say it. It's not hard to accept the truth about whose car it is.
The full name of the car also doesn't say HSV. It is a 1988 VL SS Group A SV

Senator01
04-10-2012, 08:25 AM
Well it is just a very expensive and overpriced 'Holden' then ... nothing special.

RedHotMike
04-10-2012, 09:06 AM
Technically, the first official model HSV worked on was the Holden-engineered VL Group A, however it wasn’t until the VL Calais SV88 that HSV actually designed and engineered the vehicle – hence the confusion at times when discussing HSV’s first vehicle.
.
Does not say anything about ownership, says the Walky was technically HSV's first vehicle, but was developed by Holden.
But I don't dispute you in relation to the ownership issue for racing, etc
I am surprised about HSV counting the VN Grp A in their numbers, are they HSV plated? I thought that whole production was done by Holden? Hence no HSV badges in sight on that car?

http://www.hsv.com.au/e3/25years/Moment2.aspx. That should clear it up. "being a GMHA contract build"

Red Hot Mike

Pickles
04-10-2012, 09:19 AM
The VL Group A (Walkinshaw) & the VN Group A are HOLDENS.....there is absolutely NO doubt about that.
The build of the cars was completed by HSV, and HSV will refer to them as "Contract Builds"...,which is absolutely what they were....for Holden.
Cheers, Pickles.

Pickles
04-10-2012, 10:03 AM
Walkinshaw was 180kw not 184, and a Holden. Not an HSV!
VR to VT were stroker engines, the first time ever done to a factory Holden based engine mated along to a nicer 6 speed manual than the old zf in Group A. This along with hydratrak was Big news in 1994. Yes it got boring by VT, but VT brought massive brakes, new seats and continued with integrating the styling which VE lacks. yes VE continue with old formulas to an extent but it's not exciting ground breaking stuff anymore.
Also HSV didn't actually have a rival as such back then. The BMW and Mercedes they were compared with were rather lacking in performance at times, but HSV were regularly embarrassed by the much cheaper WRX which didn't bother HSV coz apparently that performance market wasn't their target. These days all the budget cars from overseas have luxury up to and beyond expensive HSV cars and aren't too bad in the performance area either, something the VN-VS HSV didn't need to worry about.

Look at benchmark cars HSV built, SV5000- it had no local comp. same as clubsport to caprice 215i. The closest thing they had was an EB GT and EL GT 5 years apart. And the slower EL GT got both Allan Moffat AND Peter Brock's approval as the best aussie musle car. And that was over XY GT, VN Group A, VH group 3, charger, GTSR, and more. 2 men well qualified to make that call. AU had T Series but unfortunately marketing was out of Tickfords hands and ford sold them rather boringly. Until T3. But by then it was too late.

Today HSV have a lot more competition from everywhere and they haven't raised the bar like years gone by. Love them or hate them Ford sell either an XR6T and G6ET with over 530Nm torque that have very good acceleration then there is the slowest FPV - the F6 to the New R-Spec GT, all of which are great performance cars and depending which side of the fence u sit are all good products. The whole line up is either force fed by supercharger or turbo, a good marketing stragety Much like HSV's stroker engines and 6 speeds in the 90s. Ford is not selling well because they are still carrying unwanted baggage they inherited in their boring days. This is an area HSV will come to know well if they don't lift their act. Not only is the blue oval product good but look at holden's own SS and SSV. Why spend the extra on hsv when there is a cheaper option almost from within?

http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_From-the-Editor/A_1207/article.html
Check out this article....re the EL Falcon GT.....which pretty much echos my thoughts on this car. The comments by the journo on other issues is interesting too.
It is interesting Carl that in reference to the comparison test to which you refer (I can remember reading it many years ago!)that Brock & Moffat said the EL was the best, although it certainly was not the fastest......which is EXACTLY what I'm saying about the current HSV/FPV "discussion" here.....the HSV mightn't be the fastest....but as in the case of the EL GT, it's still a better package.....and, as you said, Brock & Moffat preferred the EL, even though it wasn't the fastest.
Cheers, Pickles.

SoulJet
04-10-2012, 11:37 AM
Yep no doubt the VL and VN Group A's are Holdens. When a company wants to produce anything in relation to these cars they have to go to Holden for legal approval (experienced this first hand). For any others it's HSV.
On another note, Holden won Bathurst in 1990, not HSV ;)

Also has anybody else noticed in the 25 years in 25 days special on the HSV website, it states the VS GTS/R as the "The original GTS/R"
Now I maybe being very hopeful here but is this a hint that a new GTS/R may get revealed at the Sydney Motor Show?? Or will we once again be disappointed?

Ronnie
04-10-2012, 04:16 PM
Yep no doubt the VL and VN Group A's are Holdens. When a company wants to produce anything in relation to these cars they have to go to Holden for legal approval (experienced this first hand). For any others it's HSV.
On another note, Holden won Bathurst in 1990, not HSV ;)

Also has anybody else noticed in the 25 years in 25 days special on the HSV website, it states the VS GTS/R as the "The original GTS/R"
Now I maybe being very hopeful here but is this a hint that a new GTS/R may get revealed at the Sydney Motor Show?? Or will we once again be disappointed?

They could have been referring to the GTS/R concept car released at the motor show when VZ was released.

SoulJet
04-10-2012, 04:27 PM
They could have been referring to the GTS/R concept car released at the motor show when VZ was released.

Good point. I really need to stop hoping that HSV is going to do anything to get me excited again lol.

Ronnie
04-10-2012, 04:39 PM
Good point. I really need to stop hoping that HSV is going to do anything to get me excited again lol.

I Just remembered that they exported the VT2 GTS to the UK under GTS/R.

Maybe they should have called the W427 a GTS/R.

SoulJet
04-10-2012, 04:53 PM
I Just remembered that they exported the VT2 GTS to the UK under GTS/R.

Maybe they should have called the W427 a GTS/R.

That's true as well... Would be interesting to know if they do have anything planned for the motor show now or the 25th anniversary GTS was it.

I still believe the W427 was marketed incorrectly. They first stated that it was going to be a limited edition of 427 vehicles which turned out to be way too optimistic at the 150k price.
In my opinion if they called it the GTS/R and styled it more to the blue collar workers they would have far surpassed the 130 odd cars they ended up making. I fear their efforts on trying to target the European market hurt them with the W427 (and this attitude continues to hurt them to this day).

HSVGTS125
04-10-2012, 05:21 PM
http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_From-the-Editor/A_1207/article.html

It is interesting Carl that in reference to the comparison test to which you refer (I can remember reading it many years ago!)that Brock & Moffat said the EL was the best, although it certainly was not the fastest......which is EXACTLY what I'm saying about the current HSV/FPV "discussion" here.....the HSV mightn't be the fastest....but as in the case of the EL GT, it's still a better package.....and, as you said, Brock & Moffat preferred the EL, even though it wasn't the fastest.
Cheers, Pickles.
That's true and I do get your point, but the big difference here is they drove both cars, you and I haven't. I also didn't agree with their conclusion way back then due to them liking GT for its superior ride rather than outright performance which a musclecar has. Back then I liked the 215i but today I'd take the GT purely for the reasons they both liked...... I'm getting old I think

Pickles
04-10-2012, 05:34 PM
That's true and I do get your point, but the big difference here is they drove both cars, you and I haven't. I also didn't agree with their conclusion way back then due to them liking GT for its superior ride rather than outright performance which a musclecar has. Back then I liked the 215i but today I'd take the GT purely for the reasons they both liked...... I'm getting old I think
"Getting Old"....Ha ha ha....You've got a LLOONNNGGG way to go to catch me!
Cheers, Martin.

roly
05-10-2012, 07:15 PM
Motoring magazines called it an HSV, they also called an SV5000 a holden.

Now a few history lessons. The Group A was built under contract for Holden in a joint venture. Meaning it was always a Holden, HSV finished it off as Holden or any other primary manufacturer was not allowed to build Group A cars, including the HDT days. So it is a Holden car, not an HSV.

Secondly, 180kw is the official power output by Holden. The logbook shows that which is more accurate than modern motor or any other publication in the day.

No one disputes the 6 second part, but since u went ahead and printed the advertisement you should also see where that figure originally came from. It was from a pre production Bryce engineering non body kitted standard VL with full Group A running gear. Which made the car more than 80kg lighter than the production car that probably never saw 6.5 second 0-100.


mine would :)

roly
05-10-2012, 07:18 PM
unfortuantely, you sold the car, it would be different had you kept it


Yes that is the car

Now there is not much I do not know about this car. I researched it well and have very good knowlegde of these early cars especially the walkinshaw. I know they aren't and never have been a HSV model. Yes they are referred to as an HSV but it's incorrect. Just as a vk or VL is not an HDT Group A, the cars always belonged to Holden.
As for the "fissy fit" it's to do with changing history by what I believed to be an HSV doco featuring the first Holden/ HSV built Group A with photos of a prototype with solid C-pillar. #001 now features that c pillar which I hate because it never had it to begin with and even from a street commodores photo showing "001 complete with solid c pillar" is misleading.
It's a passion of mine, and I like to keep its history honest.

HSVGTS125
05-10-2012, 09:31 PM
unfortuantely, you sold the car, it would be different had you kept it

I'm not sure what you're getting at with that quote!
If u mean it wouldn't have a solid c pillar then no it wouldn't have.
If u mean it'd be an HSV if I owned it then no it wouldn't be, I always had it as a Holden at the car shows when on display with the story of its link with HSV and being the first car they completed. In the early days I did believe it was an HSV but once researched I knew better.

But because I don't own it, that doesn't mean I don't have a strong attachment to it. I'm part of the history of that car which will never change. So I want to make sure it's history is restored and kept original.
I don't care what the owner does with the car, he bought it and has whatever right to do with it how he pleases, but for as long as I'm around I will make sure it's history is correct and this car does not morph into something it is not. And it is not an HSV and it was never built like a prototype

roly
05-10-2012, 10:55 PM
was mainly that if you owned it, it would still have the original c pillars with windows.

same as my car, i know the real story behind my car, i know the guy who bought it new in 1988.

yes we have HSV "experts" who put their spin on it.

I would love to know what the narrative on my car is? Jeremy?

Sniper
05-10-2012, 11:25 PM
I hate to get back on topic guys . . . but here goes

I saw one of the 25th GTS's today in the flesh. . . . and I hate to say that its a damn pooor effort . . .even the wheels look a little "Weak" in my opinion. . . .

I'm sure all 125 of them will sell . . . but the thing doesnt make an impact on me . . .

Maybe I am being a sook. . . . but after living the whole 25 years, John Crennan & I deserve something a little better than a sticker special . . . and let me be totally clear . . its just a sticker special. . .

very sad HSV . . . hang your head in shame Harding & Co

jkhsv
05-10-2012, 11:36 PM
I take it you arent buying one Graeme ?

roly
05-10-2012, 11:41 PM
i put some comments on the Age website article. below is a more detailed response to what i wrote.

AS the owner of an early homologation HSV (Holden) i see the excitement and huge leap that was made 25 years ago. This anniversary car is a extra sticker on an already over / re stickered car.

I owned an E1 Maloo as my 1st HSV after waiting 3 years to buy my Walky from the original owner and knowing the car since it was 3 months old as a 13 year old kid.

I sold my E1 Maloo at 2 years and 24,000kms, with all my very early walkinshaw performance mods, i lost about $30K on a 2 year old car,

I loved every minute of that car, mainly because it was RARE, you didnt see many early Maloo's and you didnt see them driven hard from day 1 like mine was.

GTS and clubsport were everywhere, now VE Maloos are main stream., the GXP range was the final nail in the coffin.

I looked and priced a senator and grange to replace the Maloo, but, my heart wasn't in it, they are just luxo stickered shopping trolleys.

Rumours came out about the new VE GTS/R, i was ready to put $$ down on one, I wanted a new HSV that captured the old school limited edition and raw power of the original VL SS GroupA, the GTS /R and the 300kw calaway cars.

nothing happened, HSV released another sticker special and they further reduced resales values with the GXP and now the "new" base model ClubSport below the R8 , further shafting owners trying to resell to buy new HSV's. (incidentally, Holden are doing this too, I buy a new Holden every 12 months and sell last years one, now loosing a lot more than we did before, even with the 35% discount.)


I took my money any bought elsewhere.

If HSV made a new GTS/R that fitted the bill in my opinion and is WORTHY of the GTS/R name, i would buy one.

I will NOT buy a new HSV that is simply an LS3 and stickers.

Roly