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muggo05
02-06-2010, 11:20 AM
Hey guys,

In the market for a new car again and having trouble deciding what i want.

I am leaning towards buying a GTS of some sort and have found a few good ones that I like.

My dilemma comes with the Series I VT GTS and the "old" Holden V8. I havent driven one yet but am curious to know what the power difference is compared to the LS1 series engines because my other option is a low km VXI/VXII R8.

I know what the figures are (220kw/475NM vs 255kw/460NM??) but wandering how that translates on the road.

What can be done to the Stroker 5.7L to get it to the same power and how much would I be looking at.


Thanks for your help,

Josh

Pickles
02-06-2010, 02:09 PM
Nothing wrong with the Holden stroker, but it ain't in the same class as the LS1.
Don't get me wrong, there are some excellent cars around with the Holden engine, but if it's engines/power you're talking about, the LS1 is the way to go.
Cheers, Pickles.

steveholb
02-06-2010, 04:20 PM
personally id go with a vx gts,some around for low mid 30,s even high 20s.300kw,big brakes etc.thats just myop.good luck whatever you choose.

Stewiecasserole
02-06-2010, 04:22 PM
Or just go balls out an get an LS3 :D

akanives
02-06-2010, 04:43 PM
stewie.... ls7.... :P
i hear theres a nice ls7 monaro for sale soon,.....
as for reality.
it depends. are you looking for pure power...
im a big fan of the 5L.
and the 5L stroker is very nice.
the ls1 is more powerful and easier to get more power from.

there is a vast array of outlets for power in both.
to get the 5L stroker to match the ls1 you could do zorst extractors n tune. i think would get it fairly up there..

muggo05
03-06-2010, 09:01 AM
Hey guys thanks for the comments.

I like the VT GTS as it was the last of the Holden V8's. and because there is some sort of exclusivity with it as its not something you see very often on the road.

I think my biggest problem would be getting one and then regretting the lack of power etc. if there is that much of a difference.

If i was looking to get say another 30KW out of it, what would i be looking at? I'd want to get the extra power out of it like the factory would, like they would if the VTII was going to keep the Holden V8 and go the same power hike as the LS1 introduced.

Sort of understand where i am coming from?

Full CAI, Throttle body, tune????

akanives
03-06-2010, 11:13 AM
to be honest i think with a better exhaust system (extracctors cats muffler etc)(which on the 5L can make an almost orgasmic note) tune, CAI would easily get you there.
Twin throttle bodies have beel claimed to add up to 30% (or more) power in the 5L but you would be looking at $2000 for that alone.

im also not sure on how they (twin throttle bodies) effect (bad or good)fuel effiecency at all.

although the other thing is. with the gts im assuming it would have the hsv cai already in them.which means there isnt that much to gain from an aftermarket cai.

muggo05
03-06-2010, 12:44 PM
yeah i might go through with a better exhaust system with a tune and it should almost get it to 250kw and over 500nm.

Will have to go and drive one and feel for myself. been driving a VY 4spd Clubsport for last few months so i have a rough guide to judge it against, the manual is another thing though.

Is there any reason why you guys wouldnt buy a VT GTS? Besides the lack of power compared to LS1?

Pickles
03-06-2010, 05:36 PM
Some-one's mentioned "twin throttle bodies" for around $2K.. Obviously not the genuine Holden Gp A item.... which will cost you $5/6k+.....if you can find one.....and you still won't be anywhere near an LS1.
A friend of mine has a really lovely VT Senator 220i....with every option ($100K+new..he bought it S/H a few years ago)...he loves the car, but he's less than overwhelmed with the performance.
If you dead-set want the Holden motor for whatever reason, then for sure that's up to you, but being regularly blown away by ordinary (non HSV) LS1 powered Holdens certainly wouldn't be my cup of tea.
Drive a GOOD example of each, before you make up your mind.
Cheers, Pickles.

zig
03-06-2010, 06:23 PM
Buy a clubby r8 and put what it needs on it to be gts specs?

akanives
03-06-2010, 06:38 PM
yeah the genuine group a TTB's are a lot more. come racing ones can be purchased from around 2 - 3k + install.

its completely up to personal preferance for everyone.

for visual reasons.
i would rather a vt (either series 1 or 2) or vs over any other hsv. next to that would be vx.

for exhaust i dont think the ls1 can sound as good (excluding a few) as the 5L engines.
in terms of power the ls1 wins most cases.
the standard 5L vt clubby runs about 15 - 15.4 on a qtr mile.
where a stock vx ss can run between 14 - 14.5
and obviously the vx hsvs even quicker.
but i dont have any experience with the factory stroked 5L (5.7L)

muggo05
03-06-2010, 08:19 PM
Yeah I am a bit of an HSV purist so buying a Clubsport GTS isn't an option.

I dont know, I need to drive the VT to get a feeling myself as to what sort of power it has. if it is enough for me then great, if not then i need to way up going for an LS1 series and keeping it genuine or working the stroker to get some power out of it and taking the collectors appeal away from it.

Thanks for your help and opinions guys, appreciate it.

Just want to know if i do go the VT, then how big the performance gap will be to LS1 powered cars.

Have a seriously stuffed ankle at the moment and am in a brace for the next few weeks so once i am out of it i will go for a drive in it and let you know how i go.

Josh.

HSVnut
03-06-2010, 10:18 PM
i could have got a VT 1 GTS for 17 grand back when i got my VT 2 R8 for 19,700 and before that i had a VS Clubby mod'd and i miss the old holden engine for 1 thing.....sound......as a daily cruiser/show car/car to keep for a while till maybe the point where they go up in price thats good but, dyno days, dragdays track days if your into that sorta stuff a VT 1 is not for you 5.0 or 5.7 you'll need to spend 6ish grand on a old holden engine to bring it to 200rwkw like a stock VX R8 will, i spent $1500 to get mine to 230rwkw and the VT LS1s are more restrictive then the VXs a VT

XR8TEDVY2
04-06-2010, 05:38 PM
Ill tell you something, if you are concerned with power which you obviously are then for gods sake unless you plan on spending up real big dont go the 5.0. Don't get me wrong i love them (i still have one in my SLR) but you will end up hating it if power comes into it especially in a big fat VT. I have spent years wasting $$ on cars , making wrong decisions at every turn. So trust me...lol

macca33
04-06-2010, 11:34 PM
The stroker engine was a ripper - very strong off-idle and up to 4000rpm, but then it tripped over - mostly due to intake manifold and cam. They sound good, but after that, the LS1 completely overwhelms it.

One other thing, the VT GTS was Executive-spec in electrics, whereas VT2 and later are at Berlina-spec, which brings with it climate control air, etc, etc. Just one other thing to consider.

I reckon a VT2 or VX GTS would be a fairly decent buy nowadays and they are great rigs that have all the fruit - just be sure to change the camshaft / valvesprings and lifters, for trouble-free motoring.

cheers

richo7502000
05-06-2010, 07:27 PM
yeah i might go through with a better exhaust system with a tune and it should almost get it to 250kw and over 500nm.

Will have to go and drive one and feel for myself. been driving a VY 4spd Clubsport for last few months so i have a rough guide to judge it against, the manual is another thing though.

Is there any reason why you guys wouldnt buy a VT GTS? Besides the lack of power compared to LS1?

Just to delve a little off track...I really really love the VS Shaped HSV's....Thats why I now have 2 HSVs at home as I cant bare to get rid of the old VS.
It sounds so tough, no LS series engine I have heard sounds as tough! It is only the 185i and Auto, BUT.. it also only weighs 1330 KG compared to a VT-VZ at around 1600+ kg.
My point is I would look at a Manual VS GTS with the 215i Stroker in it, one in great Nick can be had for a reasonable price, it will look tough, sound tough and due to the VS having less weight it will go pretty bloody good too! Even if ya still spend some dough getting it to 250KW its gonna hammer and realistically wont be a massive way away from an LS1 car in performance overall.....anyway food for thought. :D
If I was getting the heavier VT-VZ then yeah would go a series 2 , or better still a VX to get the LS1 engine to be honest!

zig
05-06-2010, 07:55 PM
The VT series 2 comes in 5.7

richo7502000
05-06-2010, 08:08 PM
The VT series 2 comes in 5.7

Dude the VS GTS and VS Senator 215i, VT GTS series 1 and VT Senator signature 220i was also 5.7 Litre (but was a Holden stroker engine)
The VT Series 2 was an LS1 (Chev) 5.7 litre.

The LS1 was alloy (so lighter) had 6 bolt mains, and was more powerful standard than the Holden Strokers.
The Holden Strokers only made up to 220KW standard, the LS1 base engine in the Holdens was 235KW I think from memory, 250KW in the HSV's. So was better out of the box!

zig
05-06-2010, 08:18 PM
Dude the VS GTS and VS Senator 215i, VT GTS series 1 and VT Senator signature 220i was also 5.7 Litre (but was a Holden stroker engine)
The VT Series 2 was an LS1 (Chev) 5.7 litre.

The LS1 was alloy (so lighter) had 6 bolt mains, and was more powerful standard than the Holden Strokers.
The Holden Strokers only made up to 220KW standard, the LS1 base engine in the Holdens was 235KW I think from memory, 250KW in the HSV's. So was better out of the box!

Gotcha mate, my first 5.7 was an executive ex cop car, 225kw from memory, that must have been one of the first 5.7's, i remeber when i bought it, i took it in for the piston slap testing and oil use issues.

akanives
05-06-2010, 10:27 PM
vt series 2 ss's were 225kw.
vt2 hsv's were 250kw

vx went to 235kw i believe
while vx hsv's started at 255kw and the gts was 300kw.

the VS's were very nice and also very lite.
a cherry black vs clubby... mmmmmmmmm

tbh you shouldnt be taking advice from here about which ones are better and which option you should take.

test drive one. test drive another. and if you have a mate with a slightly modified holden stroker.. give that a test drive to see how the engine feels. if not im sure someone on here in your area would have one.

only way to find what you want is to go for a drive.

i went down to holden for a look around just to see what they had. i sat in a blue vt clubby.. found myself at the bank talking to them an hour later.
traded in my berlina... and love the clubby.
ive also been in a cv8 monaro at holden that made me laugh...

HSV_CRUZN
06-06-2010, 10:27 AM
Just to delve a little off track...I really really love the VS Shaped HSV's....Thats why I now have 2 HSVs at home as I cant bare to get rid of the old VS.
It sounds so tough, no LS series engine I have heard sounds as tough! It is only the 185i and Auto, BUT.. it also only weighs 1330 KG compared to a VT-VZ at around 1600+ kg.
My point is I would look at a Manual VS GTS with the 215i Stroker in it, one in great Nick can be had for a reasonable price, it will look tough, sound tough and due to the VS having less weight it will go pretty bloody good too! Even if ya still spend some dough getting it to 250KW its gonna hammer and realistically wont be a massive way away from an LS1 car in performance overall.....anyway food for thought. :D
If I was getting the heavier VT-VZ then yeah would go a series 2 , or better still a VX to get the LS1 engine to be honest!

Ahh, a man of good taste. I myself have an LS1 powered HSV and a 5ltr powered VS HSV in the garage and whilst the ls1 is nice and no complaints from it, everyone still has this big soft spot for the VS.

Now as for the original thread question. I have a VT2 R8 m6, 2 vs HSV 5tlrs and my dad has a HRT VT1 GTS stroker m6(one of the 10kw blueprinted ones) so nobody can tell me shit. I will be honest in saying they are all great cars and whichever way you go you're a winner.

Having said that there is always this 5ltr V ls1 debate blah blah blah, this that and the next thing. Between my dads Vt1 GTS and LS1 VT clubsport, in the real world of day to day driving there is 9/10ths of jackshit difference in the way the cars feel and go. The s1 GTS is pokier down low and the ls1 shows its strengths up top. I love the rougher dont mess with me feeling the aussie motor has at below 100km/h, but then the ls1 comes on and gives you that 'bye bye' you cant catch me feeling from then on. Using the quarter mile as a measuring tool you will find the ls1 pips the GTS to the finish line (stock for stock) but not by munch. Around town as a cruisy and just to have a car with abit of poke one is as good as the other. For abit of uniqueness the GTS will take the crown (lets face it every man and his dog has a gen3).

As somebody else mentioned, perhaps look at a VS stroker HSV in m6 form. I know of 2 in stock form in the last couple of years which ran close on a full tank of fuel and spare wheel and both got a 14.2. And there was a timeslip for a stock VR HSv stroker many years ago floating around that had a 13.9. If driven by somebody that knows what theyre doing and are in healthy order, theyre not as slow as many think;)

When it comes to power per dollar though. The LS1 is King ;)

XR8TEDVY2
06-06-2010, 10:32 PM
vt series 2 ss's were 225kw.
vt2 hsv's were 250kw

vx went to 235kw i believe
while vx hsv's started at 255kw and the gts was 300kw.

the VS's were very nice and also very lite.
a cherry black vs clubby... mmmmmmmmm

tbh you shouldnt be taking advice from here about which ones are better and which option you should take.

test drive one. test drive another. and if you have a mate with a slightly modified holden stroker.. give that a test drive to see how the engine feels. if not im sure someone on here in your area would have one.

only way to find what you want is to go for a drive.

i went down to holden for a look around just to see what they had. i sat in a blue vt clubby.. found myself at the bank talking to them an hour later.
traded in my berlina... and love the clubby.
ive also been in a cv8 monaro at holden that made me laugh...


Not that it matters but ill correct ya's
Non HSV VT2 220kw HSV Clubby's 250kw GTS 300kw
Non HSV VX 225kw HSV Clubby 255kw GTS 300kw
Non HSV VY1 235kw HSV Clubby 260KW GTS 300kw
Non HSV VY2 240kw HSV Clubby 285kw GTS 300kw
Non HSV VZ 250kw HSV Clubby 297kw No GTS

blah blah blah
There ya have it !:o

akanives
07-06-2010, 12:19 AM
VT2 GTS was 300? cant honestly remember having seen a GTS VTII...

richo7502000
07-06-2010, 06:11 AM
VT2 GTS was 300? cant honestly remember having seen a GTS VTII...

There certainly was a VTII GTS with the 300KW C4B fitted!

You was right about the VT Gen III it was 220KW originally, now you mentioned it...I had 235 In my head for some reason???
you forgot the Non HSV VZ also had 260KW 6.0 litre from Jan '06.

white_lie
07-06-2010, 07:21 AM
All VTII - VYII GTS's had the same 300kW Callaway C4B. Boat anchor of a motor, but the problems would/should be ironed out if you're buying now. As bad as the motor is, you can't compare a Series I and II in terms of power output and speed. The Series II will win everytime, even though the Holden motor makes more torque down low, the difference from 220 to 300kW should be enough to make up your mind!

Even with a couple of bolt ons and a tune, i've seen them up around the 260-270rwkW (350-360kW) mark quite frequently with the manuals. No way in the world you'll get that sort of power in a Holden stroker for the cost and most importantly, still have it behave like a stocker.

muggo05
07-06-2010, 09:28 AM
Hey guys thanks for all your help and opinions.

Ankle has healed up enough to go out and drive it and wow, I fell in love with it.

Had way more power than I expected and felt quicker than the Auto VY Clubsport I have been driving around. (probably due to the manual box)

Car has done 120,000km and has been kept away in storage and looked after for all its life. had 2 previous owners, second of which was a member of the HDT/HSV owners club of NSW and had the engine rebuilt at 60,000km by HSV due to piston slap. (I find that comforting knowing that the problem has been fixed by HSV and not just some mechanic, and also takes the doubt away from it coming up in the future.)
Current owner has only done 8000km in it in 10 years.
Gear box and diff are tight as a drum and clutch was replaced 8000km ago for piece of mind.
Has full leather interior, premium sound and sunroof.

Sorting out my finances and hopefully will have it by this weekend!
Will post pics here when it is in my driveway!!

Thanks again all,

Josh

HSVE01
07-06-2010, 09:39 AM
So which exact model was it?

akanives
07-06-2010, 11:05 AM
by the way he worded it i think he is talking about the VTI GTS.

muggo05
07-06-2010, 01:26 PM
Yeah its a VTI. 220KW stroker, M6.

Pretty happy with the performance and sounds awesome!!!

well put up a new thread when I get it and show you guys.

Actually here is the link:

http://www.musclecarstables.com.au/details.php?id=202

XR8TEDVY2
07-06-2010, 04:05 PM
Hey guys thanks for all your help and opinions.



Had way more power than I expected and felt quicker than the Auto VY Clubsport I have been driving around. (probably due to the manual box)

Josh

I would put money on the fact that the VY has a stock exhaust and you can hardly hear it or something compared to the ole school roar of the stroker and it sounds faster. Thats all...unless the stroker has been worked. Either way sounds like you have made up your mind bud.. Good luck with it !

XR8TEDVY2
07-06-2010, 04:09 PM
There certainly was a VTII GTS with the 300KW C4B fitted!

You was right about the VT Gen III it was 220KW originally, now you mentioned it...I had 235 In my head for some reason???
you forgot the Non HSV VZ also had 260KW 6.0 litre from Jan '06.

Yeah i also forgot to mention the VE's. I went up until 2004 is all Richo as that was the period of discussion :)
It only seemed like yesterday when the first 1999 VTII HSV's where released with the Gen III...*Thinks* Ahh the memories

muggo05
08-06-2010, 08:26 AM
Loan pre-approved today just need to show my face at the local branch.

Hopefully have it by this weekend.

As for the VY, it has a catback exhaust on it so it sounds good, but just didnt have the same push in the back as the GTS does. might be due to the shorter ratios, and also that the stroker is fairly new, was rebuilt by HSV 60,000kms ago and well looked after since then.

I'm excited!

richo7502000
08-06-2010, 06:35 PM
Loan pre-approved today just need to show my face at the local branch.

Hopefully have it by this weekend.

As for the VY, it has a catback exhaust on it so it sounds good, but just didnt have the same push in the back as the GTS does. might be due to the shorter ratios, and also that the stroker is fairly new, was rebuilt by HSV 60,000kms ago and well looked after since then.

I'm excited!

Thats a nice looking Ride mate, there is also a VT1 GTS for sale in Melbourne at the moment, about same price with absolutely hardly any Km (60000K roughly) on car sales too..some guys had stashed it away in storage for ages.

HK GTS 327
08-06-2010, 10:33 PM
Hi Muggo

Sorry to bother you but my VT Clubbie R8 Manual is still for sale. 65500klms.
Sorry no leather but better performer than a series one GTS. I love those Aussie cast iron motors (it's the Old School in my blood)
But I just think the VTII R8 is a better package.
When I bought this one new I had the opportunity to buy a demo ser1 GTS but took the new R8 no regrets. Saw the comments about the VS Clubbie. I bought a ser2VS new.....still miss that car!

Just got an Immac GTO Signature #65/70 and have no room for the R8. One too many regos and the old Patrol is out in the weather! Anyway, please have a look at my car. $21k neg and will deliver to Syd in enclosed transport free.

white_lie
09-06-2010, 07:09 AM
Still for sale?? That thing is immaculate, how come its still for sale?! Are you advertising it at all?

muggo05
09-06-2010, 08:38 AM
Hey HK.

Sorry to hear your R8 is still for sale mate. I am going to pick up the GTS today so i can't help you out any.

I agree with you though that the R8 is the better performer, but this wasn't a decision based on logic. When the VT GTS first came out and I was 11, I really wanted one.

and now that i can afford to, and found this one fully optioned, it was a no brainer for me.

I hope your sale goes well and hope to meet you out at a cruise or something soon.

Josh

XR8TEDVY2
09-06-2010, 09:20 AM
:!:Just one word on here bout been blown away by a gen III exec commodore !!! Just ooooooonnnnnneeeeee word !!:!: .............. :D

muggo05
09-06-2010, 09:24 PM
what you on about VY2?

akanives
09-06-2010, 11:51 PM
i think he is tryin to point out the (point thats been made about 30 times) that a standard LS1 may be quicker...

but... all i can say is that whilst he may be quicker... you dont have to worry.. you wont even be able to hear that ls1 even if the driver redlines it...
the sweet sweeet sounds of a 5L and the stroked 5L :P

muggo05
10-06-2010, 09:05 AM
Do I have to put up my previous post again?

this wasn't a decision about logic and the fastest car, i dont care!

I have wanted one of these since they first came out, and after picking it up last night, now i have one!

Getting some pictures taken with my cousin's VS clubsport soon by a professional, so once they are taken i'll put them up here in a thread for my car.

wouldnt change a thing about it, i love it!

thanks again all those with constructive comments!

akanives
10-06-2010, 01:46 PM
congratz :P
cant wait to see the pictures :D

HK GTS 327
10-06-2010, 11:16 PM
Thanks for the comments Muggo and everyone else.

I do not know why my R8 is still for sale. I think being located in Yamba NSW is a part of the reason. I am trying to counter this by offering delivery in enclosed transport subject to conditions. That is a genuine offer. I bought it new and Honestly it is better than the photos. We have baby'd the beast since we bought it new and worked hard to keep the kilometres down. Every service except one is by our local dealer who we trust. Joanne has driven it mainly around Yamba. We have a Nissan Patrol we bought six years later. It has been driven everywhere and now shows over 160000Ks just to keep the mileage down on the Clubby. As a result driving the Clubby was usually a bit of a treat.
When we bought it we found the perfect number plates (VTR008 ) .
We also found VXR008 and took them because we intended getting a new VXR8 but did not do that because we liked the VT so much (If anyone in NSW wants these please PM. They are presently on the Nissan......don't belong there!). Every time a new model came out we went and looked at it but nothing appealed to us like the VT. So we kept it. We went to Sydney and were looking at ser2 VEGTS but I have wanted a GTO Signature since I saw one @ the Monaro Nats @ Ballarat in 2008. Found one on the net in Syd on the day I was going to order the VE2 and bought it....smitten. Fr1ggin fantastic car!
If we could predict it would be difficult to sell the VTR8 when we bought it I would have changed my approach and it would now be just another sh1tter with 180000klms on the clock.
The only person to benefit from our efforts will be the next owner. I am not bragging, just stating how I am with my cars. I love 'em and really enjoy keeping them well.
With older muscle cars log books and service history along with unmolested condition are GOLD and this is how we have kept the VT. I am too old to be able to keep it till it is really of value but I feel I have contributed to its future collectability by being a responsible owner.

Thanks again and Muggo I know you will enjoy your VT......one of the best models using that floorpan/architecture. I know, we have 10 years of first hand experience.
Nick Yamba NSW

VX15ANNIV
11-06-2010, 11:10 PM
HK GTS by the sounds of it someone will get lucky on day and stumble across your beauty with the right amount of cash in there hand.;)

When they do tell them they have to join our Forum:D:D

HK GTS 327
04-10-2010, 08:53 PM
TKS Anisversary.
Yep.
Sold to a Sydney buyer.
Nice guy. I have kept in touch with him.
I feel that while he owns it, the mileage will be kept down and it will be well cared for.
These cars are not quite collectable yet. But thanks to the new owner it will definitely be one when the time comes.
Cheers
Nick

Senator265
06-10-2010, 07:58 PM
do it buy it there gorgeous cars and the 308 u cant go wrong