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Sniper
24-05-2014, 02:17 PM
Whether your as old as me or in your teens, as a member of the Autstralian SV community the name Brock and HDT will be part of your Automotive lifestyle

HDT was only with us for 7 short years as a factory endorsed entity. But without a doubt it was one of the most defining periods of the Australian Automotive Industry . . . Peter Brock was an enigma & icon that fuelled our p***ions like never before and to be honest - never sinse . . . Having a figurehead like Brock at the head of such an institution was the icing on the cake and I have no doubt that the "Special Vehicles" ideal had accelerated momentum due to his presence

Yes, from time to time the ***** Peter Brock was pretty much out of control to the point where he actually believed (or was convinced by Bev & Eric Dowker) that he was "holier that thou" - which ultimately became his undoing

. . . But in those 7 great years he one thing that all of us 4500 HDT owners had was - FUN - and plenty of it . . .

I'm hoping that others that lived in that era add to this thread so many of the *****er generation on here can understand the journey we all had in a more clearer dimension . . . so please post away and ask questions . . .

adr8
24-05-2014, 03:26 PM
These HDT and early HSVs threads are great, very interesting reading and learning a lot, so definitely subscribed to this thread. Donít know much about HDT and early HSV so canít contribute much, but I do still have my HDT jacket from the 80ís lol
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w491/advr8/CAM00011.jpg
http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w491/advr8/CAM00013.jpg

HSVGTS125
24-05-2014, 04:43 PM
It will be interesting to see where this thread goes, I entered the car era with the early HSV cars and never really appreciated some of the Brock ones until the early 2000's.
Watching the HDT DVD in 2006/7 was probably when I enjoyed the journey of HDT rather than knowig about the demise as HDT always seems to be remembered for that more than the great era of car building.
Funnily enough it wasn't Brock who made me enjoy the history but the 2 mechanics who told their version of events. It gave the story "Personality".
For me though, I am a fan on the post Brock cars (VN Aero and VG Magnum). To me the Aero package gave the VN a great modern look that enhanced the car rather than make it look like a horrible VN/ VG hence the reason I built my own VG Magnum replica years ago.
for me the VN Aero gave HDT a great start to a new era but unfortunately lacked "Sole" that only Brock could deliver!

Sniper
24-05-2014, 05:33 PM
It will be interesting to see where this thread goes,

I doubt this thread will go too far on a HSV Forum but as some members subscribe to another forum that features HDT only and contains quite a lot of rubbish I thought it prudent to have some sort of discussion around actual facts

Also, there are a few members on here looking at HDT products at the moment they should also have access to knowledge that is correct . . . from those that lived the era

It's been just over 27 years sinse GMH pulled the pin on Brock so many on here were still in "Bagdad" or quite ***** so have little concept of where the real beginning was . . . How it evolved . . Why it evolved . . . and why it ended and what really caused the demise . . .

I'm a larrikin so were many HDT owners and in no small way - Brock was the "ring leader" . . . and he never hid behind the "corporate curtain" like HSV do today . . . Brock was out and about and always keen for a chat and a laugh!

HSVGTS125
24-05-2014, 06:30 PM
I like how he just did things, he certainly had alot of freedom. Like how the VL got a V8, Holden said it would take months of planning and research. Brock built one in an afternoon and delivered it. Done!
Stories of the early cars was funny where the guys who built them liked the black ones because the gaps could be hidden.

Sniper
24-05-2014, 06:59 PM
Getting a 304 into the VL was easy . . . getting Chuck Chapman to sign off on the ULP 304 development was the challenge . . . it had to go from 8.8:1 to 8.5:1 and cop at fresh set of "head development" for ULP also

John Lindall was a great source of support for HDT and all us V8 fans at the time too . . and he along with Brock "drove" the "V8 til 98" campaign

For all the ***** guys n ****s on here - there was a m***ive drive by many to get the V8 back into production and the "V8 til 98" campaign had plenty of support inc print material and bumper stickers generated by HDT and paid for by Holden - lol

I'd luv to know hard Brock & Lindall had to work to get Chapman over the line . . .

HSVGTS125
24-05-2014, 08:33 PM
I used to have a V8 til 98 sticker

VIP-427
25-05-2014, 10:13 AM
HDT... 3 simple letter that will be with me for life.... Never been a love/hate relationship with me like HSV has & has been a driving force for me since 1986 when i got to go for a drive in a Brand New 18th birthday present Series 2 VK GRP 3 & a journey that would see me not stop until i had reached the very best of Brock Commodores whether i could afford it or not!

I was 12 when i went for the drive... I was 19 when i got my first brock a series 1 VK GRP 3.... By Law i wasn't supposed to have it or drive it lol... but somehow i managed to drive that car around wherever i like, without displaying P's & not got pulled up once in 2 years whilst still on my P's.... i kinda like to thing that the cops new what it was, respected the breed & knew a 19 year old kid couldnt be driving one of those anyway so we'll let him enjoy his night...COPS were great in the 90's.

HDT was by the time i got my licence, i believed that the post 88HDT of the Colarafi's, Pennisi & champion have been nothing but glorified bodykit fitters... nothing more... Although i do remember 3 Cars that will always stick out in my mind from those days & that is that m***ive horsepowered white VN mongrel(bits of everything) with the pink VN GROUP A engine & white Simmons, The dark Blue VN aero of a certain Weribee Market Gardener & HDT's spanner man Cam Fisher & his bronze VB. HDT for me was more about road memories more than factory memories. I think it was the 95 Nationals at the NOW police centre(old crown casino) that blew me away, so many awesome cars, some of the highest quality i've ever seen but it was all based on who could have the most standard, original car...BOOOOORING! Heaven for bid if you broke the mould like Vinnie Macaro did & kitted out your VK SS with big wheels, big, stereo & big engine..you were kind of frowned upon but that car will always be remembered. These were the days when owning a car & even better a brock Commodore so much fun... The attention you got on the street was infectious & something i never saw again until i was one of the first to have a new devil yellow CV8.

I entered my first nationals in 1998.... i thought my car was something to behold.... that is until Mark Seamons & Mak Edwards rocked up with their HSV VL GROUP A & VK SS.... these guys re-wrote the book on concourse cars & started something that i believe finished at the 2005 Nationals, cost me another 2 cars, my marriage & ****load of money i may or may not have had & probably the downfall of my buisness but i was *****, p***ionate & had a dream of having the best! in hindsight i should've stopped at my VH GRP 3 but thats what happens when you have a hunger for 'more'

These HDT days that i remember will always be with me, yes, they are'nt really factory related but HDT still was a dream, a p***ion that i'll always remember, i've meet & made some long lasting friendships & a hell of a lot of memories & mistakes that i'll learn from. Its a shame that those days are now lost... the comradery that i felt throughout is what made it i reckon & there was always good banter to be had. You could talk for hours on the subject... unlike todays cars.

I'm very grateful that i was able to enjoy the HDT era whilst modified cars weren't seen as a blight on society & i'm also thankfull that i got to satisfy the dream of owning 2 of the best Brock Commodores ever seen......So many more stories i could tell... I just wish i could've been around driving age when the factory was open as i reckon i would've spent alot of time down there!

Sniper
25-05-2014, 10:22 AM
This thread will be a challenge to my memory and I hope that if I get omething wrong or miss some details on a topic please correct me

I mentioned A9L in another thread and have been asked what this is/was and what was special about it

There were a few versions of the A9L . . . but I guess we need to start with the basic description. . . the A9L was the designated engine code for the Homolation engine used in the GPA's . . . and was also used in the GPA/3 . . . and in other models from time to time

. . . .but I will stay on the VK & VL HDT versions - which differed from dash other

The VK had h/duty L34 style rods . . . The big valve heads . . Crane Roller Rockers . . . specific hi lift Crane CM and heavier valve springs. . . the performance intake manifold with dual inlets (rather than 4) . . there was also a variant of the std crankshaft . . . and it was anted red and fitted with chrome rocker covers

What made this A9L pretty special was the Cam . . . it was not a good cam in a performance sense but the Group A international regulations at the time allowed for a certain amount of Camshaft lift provided the road going Homologation car had that lift . . . so Holden had Crane supply a 491 thou lift Cam to "milk" the rules - sadly the road going Group A still had to meet emissions so the "duration" of this CM was ordinary and the overall performance gain for the road car was negligible . . . but it was good to have and arguably made the VK A9L the most unique as a road going version . . . finally the VK was fitted with a nice set of primary headers that were engineered to have the secondaries made into any configuration as per the FIA rules

The VL A9L differed quite a lot in the interest of reliability but firstly I must say the Cam issue was resolved with the FIA and the VL no longer had a Homologation high lift cam - bugger . . . but the VL copped plenty of other goodies the VK A9L didn't have!! . . . . special rods with an extra bit of ribbing for strength . . . a better crank . . . and trick "machined" main bearing caps that looked quite awesome at the time - I have a pic somewhere but I can't lay my hands on it right now . . a unique lighter flywheel too which I hope I can find a pic of . . . this donk was painted black and had chrome rocker covers too . . . HDT and Holden "milked" the exhaust rules to the max with the VL (and the Walky too) by having the first joint in the header just 3 inches from the exhaust port . . . which enabled clever engineers like Larry Perkins, Ian Tate, Les Small and Neil Burns to produce varying power and torque depending on the track they were racing at the time . .

I'm sure I've missed things in this post but that's a basic description

Sniper
25-05-2014, 10:35 AM
HDT... 3 simple letter that will be with me for life.... Never been a love/hate relationship with me like HSV has & has been a driving force for me since 1986

These HDT days that i remember will always be with me, yes, they are'nt really factory related but HDT still was a dream, a p***ion that i'll always remember, i've meet & made some long lasting friendships & a hell of a lot of memories & mistakes that i'll learn from. Its a shame that those days are now lost... the comradery that i felt throughout is what made it i reckon & there was always good banter to be had. You could talk for hours on the subject... unlike todays cars.

I'm very grateful that i was able to enjoy the HDT era whilst modified cars weren't seen as a blight on society & i'm also thankfull that i got to satisfy the dream of owning 2 of the best Brock Commodores ever seen......So many more stories i could tell... I just wish i could've been around driving age when the factory was open as i reckon i would've spent alot of time down there!

Awesome post Lincoln . . . and I wanted to highlight these bits above . . . for me . . . three of the best early cars that I have ever layed my eyes on are your GP3 . . . your GPA/3 . . . Marks VL HSV- fark that was tough . . . and without bragging my VL HDT is up there with those 3 . . . Would luv to photoshoot those 4 together

A couple of lads in SA had awesome cars that I enjoyed back in the day too - Michael Dontas's VK was my favourite GPA and Bill Panovic has still got his tough VH GP3 and drives it often

Pickles
25-05-2014, 11:39 AM
It will be interesting to see where this thread goes, I entered the car era with the early HSV cars and never really appreciated some of the Brock ones until the early 2000's.
Watching the HDT DVD in 2006/7 was probably when I enjoyed the journey of HDT rather than knowig about the demise as HDT always seems to be remembered for that more than the great era of car building.
Funnily enough it wasn't Brock who made me enjoy the history but the 2 mechanics who told their version of events. It gave the story "Personality".
For me though, I am a fan on the post Brock cars (VN Aero and VG Magnum). To me the Aero package gave the VN a great modern look that enhanced the car rather than make it look like a horrible VN/ VG hence the reason I built my own VG Magnum replica years ago.
for me the VN Aero gave HDT a great start to a new era but unfortunately lacked "Sole" that only Brock could deliver!
G'Day Mate.
Well, the VN Aero,..... not one of my favouries I'm afraid, but I can tell you a few things about it. It was the first model built by the Collorafis after they bought HDT from Brock. It was designed & built in their Springvale premises, where there was a separate office for Brock, who was "supposed" to be a consultant. Anyway, when the Aero was still in the design stage, the prototype was on the factory floor, & Brock was invited over to see what he thought. Well Brock didn't like the integrated rear spoiler so he started to attack the prototype, much to the horror of the Collorafis, who showed their displeasure, because Brock was never seen there again!
I actually wrote the wording for the VN Aero brochure. In return I was given an ultra ultra rare HDT VK brochure, detailing a black Director (which I had at the time) & a white Group 111,...beautiful artwork, pages separated by tissue paper etc....never seen another one like it.
The Collorafis actually tried very hard to make things work, ex HDT members Chris Sewell & Jeff Thisgaard were valuable members of their team. However, without factory support, even Brock couldn't make it work, so they were behind the eight ball from the start.
Pickles.

HSVGTS125
25-05-2014, 07:42 PM
Great inside story mate but I still love that VN Aero. That wing to me sets that car off.
Anyway back to the real HDT era

Sniper
25-05-2014, 08:53 PM
I missed a critical item in the VKGPA A9L road going combo . . . to get the emissions and ADR thru at the time with the Crane Cam HDT & Holden had to build the Group A with a stock VK 6Cyl EFI exhaust system . . . but Brock new that this would not appease GPA owners so HDT had the "Big Bore" (HDT Speak) fitted by dealers should the buyers want . . . and in many cases HDT actually fitted it at Bertie Street - unofficially . . .

Corsa
25-05-2014, 09:35 PM
In return I was given an ultra ultra rare HDT VK brochure, detailing a black Director (which I had at the time) & a white Group 111,...beautiful artwork, pages separated by tissue paper etc....never seen another one like it.


I have seen one of these and hope you still have your brochure. Along with those two cars it also included the VK Calais making it even more unusual in that it featured both Holden and HDT models together in the one brochure. I have also seen another VK Director brochure in black and white that looks to have the Black Director parked alongside a White Group 3.
Corsa

Sniper
25-05-2014, 09:39 PM
It would be good if you could post up some of these older brochures . . .

Pickles
26-05-2014, 10:51 AM
No, most of my HDT stuff was sold years ago.
Pickles.

moray066
26-05-2014, 10:51 AM
Another great thread, thank you Graeme. Now I was just a kid in the days of HDT, didn't get m enthusiasm for cars till just after the birth of what is now HSV, but I knew enough to know these things had street cred! Although I have a p***ion for HSV, I don't consider myself a HSV man, I'm a Holden man, so it does not have to be HSV to gain my interest. When the car bug bit me, it bit hard and I wanted to know as much as I could learn about the Holden product. (for me this started in 1988/9) I was 10 years old. The old man was a Holden nut, so naturally thats the direction I followed. The old man bought me a book, titled "HOLDEN, The official racing history" written by Stewart Wilson and published by Chevron Publishing group. Great book, which I have read many times and still have today. So I have taken some photos of the adds and publications in the book and hope you guys don't mind me adding them to this thread. I have tried to keep all photos/add's relevant to the HDT era.
Again, Thank you

moray066
26-05-2014, 10:53 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2080_zpsa6b32eb1.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2080_zpsa6b32eb1.jpg.html)
caption read, 1st release from HDT stable, which is obviously incorrect. Stated that 513 units were built

moray066
26-05-2014, 10:55 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2082_zps643b4603.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2082_zps643b4603.jpg.html)
This was taken in 1980 in the HDT workshop

moray066
26-05-2014, 10:56 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2083_zps6196efe9.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2083_zps6196efe9.jpg.html)
obviously out the front of the HDT shop

moray066
26-05-2014, 10:57 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2084_zps0698a799.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2084_zps0698a799.jpg.html)

moray066
26-05-2014, 10:58 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2085_zpsa4e616a1.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2085_zpsa4e616a1.jpg.html)
I like this photo, but it kind of looks staged?

moray066
26-05-2014, 10:59 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2086_zpsd41ee2d6.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2086_zpsd41ee2d6.jpg.html)
So someone in the know might be able to shed some light on how accurate these figures are? Impressive for the day.

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:00 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2087_zpsa44e51d6.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2087_zpsa44e51d6.jpg.html)

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:01 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2088_zps4a1cd5f4.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2088_zps4a1cd5f4.jpg.html)

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:02 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2089_zpsb565cb7d.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2089_zpsb565cb7d.jpg.html)

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:03 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2090_zpsf65f6d74.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2090_zpsf65f6d74.jpg.html)
the non PB packs?

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:04 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2091_zps30128496.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2091_zps30128496.jpg.html)
HDT LE Calais

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:05 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2092_zps958b66cf.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2092_zps958b66cf.jpg.html)
Nice add from the day

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:06 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2093_zps9fe43258.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2093_zps9fe43258.jpg.html)
I would like to know more about this vehicle, if anyone knows?

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:08 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2094_zps7aab7f1a.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2094_zps7aab7f1a.jpg.html)
Was this an HDT improved SS? A standard SS? Or was Holden using the "Brock" name to sell cars?

Sniper
26-05-2014, 11:08 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2083_zps6196efe9.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2083_zps6196efe9.jpg.html)
obviously out the front of the HDT shop

HDT started at Levison Street and moved to the much larger Bertie Street location . . . This pic was taken out the front of Bertie Street

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:09 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2095_zps738f23e7.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2095_zps738f23e7.jpg.html)
Great add!

Sniper
26-05-2014, 11:09 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2094_zps7aab7f1a.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2094_zps7aab7f1a.jpg.html)
Was this an HDT improved SS? A standard SS? Or was Holden using the "Brock" name to sell cars?

This was what was referred to as the "Base SS' . . . with optional side skirts

All the VK SS's went thru Bertie Street and got the seats. . . wheels etc etc and Brock made a quid from them so I guess it was a joint venture . . . and of course many got the Group 3 spec also which was the car to own at the time

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:11 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2096_zps7c8a955c.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2096_zps7c8a955c.jpg.html)
part of the add for the LE

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:11 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2097_zpse66e287b.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2097_zpse66e287b.jpg.html)
text for the add

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:13 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2098_zps38390355.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2098_zps38390355.jpg.html)
add for the VL Grp A

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:13 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2099_zps6c34476a.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2099_zps6c34476a.jpg.html)
2nd part of the VL Grp A add

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:15 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2100_zps8d8c5247.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2100_zps8d8c5247.jpg.html)
Love this photo

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:16 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2101_zpsbaebc772.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2101_zpsbaebc772.jpg.html)
Not HDT related but add for the VL V8

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:18 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2102_zpsd75bf159.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2102_zpsd75bf159.jpg.html)
Unusual car, definitaly different!

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:19 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2103_zps1a433fea.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2103_zps1a433fea.jpg.html)
Some more figures, not sure how accurate these really are?

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:21 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2104_zps69262768.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2104_zps69262768.jpg.html)
Again sorry, this is not HDT related but thought I would add it. Add for the VL Turbo, I know there are a few fans on here of these cars.

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:22 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2105_zpsc6226535.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2105_zpsc6226535.jpg.html)
Another Holden add from the late 80's

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:25 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2106_zpsd84d679b.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2106_zpsd84d679b.jpg.html)
Last one, the caption for this read, "The Walkinshaw's first racetrack outing was at Calder early in 1988, as the pace car for Australia's first NASCAR race."

moray066
26-05-2014, 11:57 AM
This was what was referred to as the "Base SS' . . . with optional side skirts

All the VK SS's went thru Bertie Street and got the seats. . . wheels etc etc and Brock made a quid from them so I guess it was a joint venture . . . and of course many got the Group 3 spec also which was the car to own at the time
Graeme, do you know what the engine spec's are for the group 3's? All I know is that they came in two engine variants, the 246bph (standard) versions and apparent 315hp option which was only offered to a select few customers? I'm guessing this probably was not ARD and emissions compliant?

Sniper
26-05-2014, 12:30 PM
Graeme, do you know what the engine spec's are for the group 3's? All I know is that they came in two engine variants, the 246bph (standard) versions and apparent 315hp option which was only offered to a select few customers? I'm guessing this probably was not ARD and emissions compliant?

I think I would like Martin (Pickles) to answer this . . . there were a series one and two in the VK as Holden went from 308ci to 304ci . . . the High Output combos started to vary as the years went on and I wasn't totally privvy to some of the shenanigans like Martin was at the time so I don't want to quote data thats not 100% accurate . . . as I said at the start - this era was one of the defining times of the motor industry and it certainly shaped many lives . . . especially mine . . . . Lol. .

Once we get past some of the VK chat I'll go into detail on the VL stuff . . . and the trick shit Brock did with the "post Holden" Signature Series Group Three . . .

adr8
26-05-2014, 03:16 PM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2104_zps69262768.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2104_zps69262768.jpg.html)
Again sorry, this is not HDT related but thought I would add it. Add for the VL Turbo, I know there are a few fans on here of these cars.

I thought the VL Turbos where faster from 0-100, I drove my mates 5 speed canary yellow ex cop car in the early 90's a fair bit and it certainly felt faster than 8 sec. They supposedly had a cop chip/tune installed, but don't know if that is correct or not?

Great pics moray066 :)

Sniper
26-05-2014, 03:22 PM
I thought the VL Turbos where faster from 0-100, I drove my mates 5 speed canary yellow ex cop car in the early 90's a fair bit and it certainly felt faster than 8 sec. They supposedly had a cop chip/tune installed, but don't know if that is correct or not?

Great pics moray066 :)

The VL Turbo had an advantage in the diff ratio . . . It had 3.45:1 and all the other VL's (inc both GPA's) had 3.08:1

Pickles
26-05-2014, 04:06 PM
HDT High Output engines?!!
There's been a lot of utter crap written about this subject over the years.
Fact is, in the VH era, HDT did make a run of VH Group 111s fitted with a "High Output" engine. This engine was "blu-printed" in the true sense of the word, heads, cam, oil cooler etc. These car were suppposed to have had a red steering wheel. From memory, the output was 300BHP. I believe there were 20 of them.
VK did not have an "official" H.O. engine. But, what was available was the "improved output" engine, which basically included a Wade 169 Cam, & a bit of headwork. I had this engine in my VL GPA P.P. Not a powerhouse that's for sure,....it put out 155KW at the wheels, the same as a VR GTS, when I attended an HDTOC Dyno Day.
There have been all sorts of ridiculous rumours over the years about high output/special road engines etc available from HDT. Simply not true. There would have been the occasional one for sure, (O'Neill cars) but VERY occasional. Any "special" engines were built by the race team, who simply did not have time to get involved in road stuff.
In addition, anything "special" simply slowed down the production process,.....not cost effective, and not a good idea.
Pickles.

Pickles
26-05-2014, 04:08 PM
I thought the VL Turbos where faster from 0-100, I drove my mates 5 speed canary yellow ex cop car in the early 90's a fair bit and it certainly felt faster than 8 sec. They supposedly had a cop chip/tune installed, but don't know if that is correct or not?

Great pics moray066 :)
No chip/no tune.
Pickles.

Sniper
26-05-2014, 04:20 PM
HDT High Output engines?!!
There's been a lot of utter crap written about this subject over the years.
Fact is, in the VH era, HDT did make a run of VH Group 111s fitted with a "High Output" engine. This engine was "blu-printed" in the true sense of the word, heads, cam, oil cooler etc. These car were suppposed to have had a red steering wheel. From memory, the output was 300BHP. I believe there were 20 of them.
VK did not have an "official" H.O. engine. But, what was available was the "improved output" engine, which basically included a Wade 169 Cam, & a bit of headwork. I had this engine in my VL GPA P.P. Not a powerhouse that's for sure,....it put out 155KW at the wheels, the same as a VR GTS, when I attended an HDTOC Dyno Day.
There have been all sorts of ridiculous rumours over the years about high output/special road engines etc
Pickles.

Well there you have it . . . I was lucky enough to experience 2 of these High Output combos in the day . . . Bill Panovic had one in his VH GP3 and Michael Dontas had one in his "rare as rocking horse shit" VK Wagon . . . both had the fully blueprinted 10:1 comp engines with the L34 pistons . . . Bill obviously had the bigger Wade 169 Cam and Michaels Wagon had the exact same combo but with the Wade 242 cam to suit the Auto . . . so there were a few very rare "full engine builds" in the VK - but as Martin says . . . much of what you hear and read is bullshit and I am trying to keep this thread as accurate as my memory can provide

Does anyone have the VK Brochure that features Michaels "Cerillian Green" Wagon . . . it was 2 tone with "Spindrift" on the bottom - VK Calais style . . .

moray066
26-05-2014, 04:26 PM
So an original "high output" VH Grp 3 would be something very special today. Thanks for the info Pickles
Although 300bhp doesn't sound like a lot by today's standards in these cars 300bhp was seriously fast!
A mate of mine had a VH with a worked VH 5lt, was making approx 230fwkw and I remember it being a JET! He did offer it to me, but wanted a little too much for it, it was immaculate though. There was a certain rawness about those cars which we don't have today. They started to loose the 'rawness' with the Walky. I've got a video, yes VHS... Of my VK opening up, when I watch it now, still gives me tingles down my spine, that car had an amazing sound to it, not just the exhaust, the induction noise from the jetted out Rochester was unbelievable! As was the way it dispensed with fuel! Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

AR8317
26-05-2014, 04:27 PM
i love threads like this you blokes are a wealth of knowledge keep up the good work :)
i was in to my xu1's and gtr's in my *****er days and a few years ago helped a mate restore one to original and it took out
the xu1 nats best original restored.
never was into the bigger commodore until a few years ago although i liked the vk and vl group a would never have bought one but now id love one next to the gts in the garage.

Pickles
26-05-2014, 04:41 PM
Well there you have it . . . I was lucky enough to experience 2 of these High Output combos in the day . . . Bill Panovic had one in his VH GP3 and Michael Dontas had one in his "rare as rocking horse shit" VK Wagon . . . both had the fully blueprinted 10:1 comp engines with the L34 pistons . . . Bill obviously had the bigger Wade 169 Cam and Michaels Wagon had the exact same combo but with the Wade 242 cam to suit the Auto . . . so there were a few very rare "full engine builds" in the VK - but as Martin says . . . much of what you hear and read is bullshit and I am trying to keep this thread as accurate as my memory can provide

Does anyone have the VK Brochure that features Michaels "Cerillian Green" Wagon . . . it was 2 tone with "Spindrift" on the bottom - VK Calais style . . .
I did have that brochure, gone, like all the rest of em!
But mate, I remember some time ago, you were going to have a go at finding that wagon?.....Any clues?
Pickles.

bosscocky
26-05-2014, 04:51 PM
Back on track.....Thanks Sniper/Pickles this type of stuff is what drew me into this site in the first place.........

Sniper
26-05-2014, 04:53 PM
I did have that brochure, gone, like all the rest of em!
But mate, I remember some time ago, you were going to have a go at finding that wagon?.....Any clues?
Pickles.

No clues Martin . . . it must be around . . . I'm sure you would have seen it in the flesh . . . looking back on it today the thing had it all . . . the sound system . . The Scheel seats . . . Centra's . . . plus all the normal Calais Director gear . . . and the donk . . . possible one of the all time finest and rarest Brocks given it was both a wagon and had that engine . . . everything Michael had was near on perfect - his VK GPA was awesome too - I think I've written about that car in the "Garages" thread

SV90
26-05-2014, 07:04 PM
There are pics of The wagon mentioned earlier in snipers garage thread by his son mark. The wagon was last seen down south in SA as far as I have heard.

http://www.hsvforum.com.au/showthread.php?7122-Snipers-Garage(s)/page33

And his vk group a here top and halfway down the page

http://www.hsvforum.com.au/showthread.php?7122-Snipers-Garage(s)/page34

Sniper
26-05-2014, 07:18 PM
There are pics of The wagon mentioned earlier in snipers garage thread by his son mark. The wagon was last seen down south in SA as far as I have heard.

Cheers for that Dan . . . I had forgotten how much stuff is in the "Garages" thread . . .

Simonk
26-05-2014, 08:03 PM
Great thread guys. I'm wondering if any of you have info on a car a family friend had back then. I would have been about 8 years old when I first saw it and it just had me in awe. It was a red VH which had the VC style flares and rear spoiler. I always thought it was a Brock but I've never been able to find any info on it. It may have just been a Holden SS with a kit on it but thought Id run it by you guys. From memory, the wheels were Bathurst Globes.

SV90
26-05-2014, 11:12 PM
There were some vh's that had the flair option. Some group 3 got them, also some VH ADP ( Australian Dealer Pack ) cars received them to depending on there specs and options. As pickles mentioned the O'neill's before, they had a few ADP special builds for them and are highly sought after in the HDT world. There best known car is no longer alive, but was quite a car. Pickles maybe able to fill the gaps on that car. The O'neill's owned a large company in SA and we're know to Brock so there cars where built to the highest specs available . Here is an article on the car I found

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg5_zps10a6f4cf.jpg
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg6_zps33ac987b.jpg
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg7_zpsa695d9b7.jpg
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg8_zps5de295d4.jpg
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg9_zpsc1aa20c7.jpg

In the ADP's you could get a SL, SLX or SL/E built to different levels and options with the high output option on the cards also. There was also 3 x wagons built during the run.

Some examples

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg2_zpsdbec8cd5.jpg
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg3_zpsf05fac41.jpg
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg4_zpsacc63a79.jpg
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg1_zps2d550fc1.jpg

There was also group c cars built, but don't recall them being road cars. Just track cars. There was a car featured in magazines years ago that matches your description, do you know if ever was featured in a magazine ?

Group c kit
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg1_zps2eaea211.jpg
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg2_zps41fb1f81.jpg
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg1_zps0b2052f1.jpg


Also in Vh there is a very sought after White VH Group 3 that was built and sold to peter daicos, the football player. This car was described as something special and have read that the car had a race motor fitted, again maybe pickles can confirm this info. Interestingly towards the end of the HDT original cars car number 4246 was a VH ADP.

Another interesting fact is that HDT sent a vl group a to the USA as the car was for Clint Eastwood. Don't know anything of the specs of that car but interesting none the less.

Pickles
27-05-2014, 07:58 AM
Of course I'd heard about the O'neill cars, I think there were two (of the 5.6 cars), but I never saw them. I believe they have now both "gone to God".
Pickles.

VIP-427
27-05-2014, 08:01 AM
I'm pretty sure that the white VH GRP 3 of Peter Daiscos was Brocks own car at the time & because of brock being a mad collingwood supporter onsold the car the Daicos.... I think the car was written off though.

Simonk
27-05-2014, 11:19 AM
Wow, that group C is unbelievably cool!

Thanks heaps for the info. The white one you posted without the skirts and bonnet bulge is pretty much what he had but in the all red combo. I'll see if I can get more info on it.

SV90
27-05-2014, 09:28 PM
Of course I'd heard about the O'neill cars, I think there were two (of the 5.6 cars), but I never saw them. I believe they have now both "gone to God".
Pickles.

I think you are right, there was a dark blue one in SA years ago with everything the car in the article had plus a sunroof and the cost of the built was $ 38,000. I saw the letter that accompanied the car when it was purchased by the then owner. That car was very ruff by this time. Pickles these cars where separate and not to be confused with the then nick named O'neill's packs that where then built for others is that correct from your info. I have found a link for a car below that state so O'Neil pack car, but don't think it was actually owned by them. Very nice car with great options.

http://australianmusclecarsales.com.au/muscle/173762-hdt-vh-group-brock-commodore-1020

SV90
27-05-2014, 09:32 PM
Wow, that group C is unbelievably cool!

Thanks heaps for the info. The white one you posted without the skirts and bonnet bulge is pretty much what he had but in the all red combo. I'll see if I can get more info on it.

Like this, minus the scoop.

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg1_zps356e7a65.jpg

Sniper
28-05-2014, 08:51 AM
The O'Neill packs were the ultimate in performance and luxury at the time . . . . I'm pretty sure there were the 2 brothers nd I can recall seeing Lance's car one day - I think it was Blue . . and both cars had the full HO engine combo and Centra Wheels . .

Brock had a special build plate on these cars that said something like this "built by HDT to the spcicications of Lance O'Neill" . . . it was a nice touch - just silver aluminium with the engraving mounted on the radiator support panel so it couldn't be missed . . .

HSVGTS125
28-05-2014, 12:23 PM
Had a little look for some old HDT stuff in my storage.
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n509/itscarlos75/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_114036-1_zps4301aae6.jpg (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/itscarlos75/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_114036-1_zps4301aae6.jpg.html)
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n509/itscarlos75/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_114356-1_zps846a13f6.jpg (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/itscarlos75/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_114356-1_zps846a13f6.jpg.html)
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n509/itscarlos75/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_113405-1_zps41ebc14a.jpg (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/itscarlos75/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_113405-1_zps41ebc14a.jpg.html)
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n509/itscarlos75/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_114136-1_zps5f422b71.jpg (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/itscarlos75/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_114136-1_zps5f422b71.jpg.html)
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n509/itscarlos75/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_112821-1_zps4f8eae6a.jpg (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/itscarlos75/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_112821-1_zps4f8eae6a.jpg.html)
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n509/itscarlos75/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_113731-1_zpsa82a325b.jpg (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/itscarlos75/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_113731-1_zpsa82a325b.jpg.html)
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n509/itscarlos75/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_113034-1_zpsb50f0627.jpg (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/itscarlos75/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_113034-1_zpsb50f0627.jpg.html)
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n509/itscarlos75/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_112448_zps45428684.jpg (http://s1137.photobucket.com/user/itscarlos75/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_20140528_112448_zps45428684.jpg.html)

Pickles
28-05-2014, 01:49 PM
Excellent stuff there mate, I had every single one of those items!
The picture of the VL Group A was the same one as on the VL Group A "Sale Card" (double sided)..a super rare item. Also on VL Group A, I had two of the original lithograph copies that HDT were originally going to provide with the VL Group A. PB signed & numbered one of mine with the car, I would say that the current owner, wherever he or she may be, still has it.
HDT were the 1st to go with all this "P.R." material,....it was, & still is,.....the best that's ever been done. (probably because there was a bit of Brock in all of it I guess!)
It all brings back some magic moments of those times, all those years ago, when those of us that drove an HDT car thought we were all pretty special, because we were all driving, "a bit of Brock". Sorry to rave on, but those days were, like Brock, pretty bloody special, can't see how they'll ever be replicated.
Pickles.

Sniper
28-05-2014, 02:44 PM
I had every single one of those items!
The picture of the VL Group A was the same one as on the VL Group A "Sale Card" (double sided)..a super rare item. Also on VL Group A
It all brings back some magic moments of those times, all those years ago, when those of us that drove an HDT car thought we were all pretty special, because we were all driving, "a bit of Brock". Sorry to rave on, but those days were, like Brock, pretty bloody special, can't see how they'll ever be replicated.
Pickles.

I don't think those times will ever be replicated mate . . . but I have a plan to do something special in the next year or so at Sandown . . . but we will have to wait see if that transpires . . . sometime later this year there may need to be a lunch somewhere with you, Mark S, Lincoln and Mario (just to name a few) to throw a few ideas on the table

This thread was something I wanted to start on Jan 1st year but when HSV started to influence the forum I lost interest -

. . . anyway, its starting to be my fav thread and for some reason I feel the "heritage" story behind the beginning of the w**** SV scene needs to be told so the *****er members on here get the gist of the entire journey . . .

I just hope more of the members on here that had cars in that era come on and tell their story . . .

Also Licoln . . . Can you put up a full size image of your avatar . . . and a pick of your VH GP3 too . . .

Sniper
28-05-2014, 03:54 PM
Well these days I really don't look forward to Mondays but next Monday will be another great day in my life

An hour ago I called Adelaide Motors BMW and asked to talk to Vin Keane's PA . . . she wasn't available but called me back 10 mins later . . . another 20 mins on and Vin himself called . . . we have made a time for a yarn next Monday . . .

Back in 1978 way before the HDT SV era I had the need to talk with Vin in relation to a warrantee issue that I had I the my VB SLE when he was the Dealer Principle at United Motrs Holden in Adelaide and within 5 mins he sorted it and I never forgot . . . 36 years later and he is just as great to chat with . . .

. . . be rest ***ured ladies and gentlemen . . . He is looking forward to this and so am I . . . you will get a full report on Monday night . . .

But he has already dropped a bombshell on me with those five mins on the phone . . . can't wait til we get the real story about how it went from conception to birth . . . of HDT

Senator01
28-05-2014, 05:49 PM
I think you are right, there was a dark blue one in SA years ago with everything the car in the article had plus a sunroof and the cost of the built was $ 38,000. I saw the letter that accompanied the car when it was purchased by the then owner. That car was very ruff by this time. Pickles these cars where separate and not to be confused with the then nick named O'neill's packs that where then built for others is that correct from your info. I have found a link for a car below that state so O'Neil pack car, but don't think it was actually owned by them. Very nice car with great options.

http://australianmusclecarsales.com.au/muscle/173762-hdt-vh-group-brock-commodore-1020

Hmmm?? Newcastle car ... might be worth a call for a visit. Looks similar to the one I test drove years ago .. sans the wheel arches.

Pickles
28-05-2014, 07:40 PM
Hmmm?? Newcastle car ... might be worth a call for a visit. Looks similar to the one I test drove years ago .. sans the wheel arches.
You did notice that the car was sold?......
Pickles.

Strick
28-05-2014, 10:43 PM
Wow interesting the Graeme look forward to the story. This is a great thread and well worth the read. Oh and if you want a hand with sandown let me know, will most likely be down that way next year!

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

SV90
28-05-2014, 11:13 PM
Sorry yes that car is sold, it was just an example. Interesting thing about that car was it was listed as sold to GMH Woodville, there was no dealer there at the time just the old factory. That car may have an interesting history.

hdt493
28-05-2014, 11:35 PM
Sorry yes that car is sold, it was just an example. Interesting thing about that car was it was listed as sold to GMH Woodville, there was no dealer there at the time just the old factory. That car may have an interesting history.

1020 was ordered from hdt by a holden employee that worked at gmh woodville. it was ordered with vc hdt bodykit, sports camshaft,130/90 headlight upgrade and dark headlight covers. apparently the owner wasn't a fan of the vh grp3 body kit and wanted his grp 3 to look like the race car of 82/83, which makes sense when you think about it. i know this because i am the current owner.

SV90
28-05-2014, 11:46 PM
1020 was ordered from hdt by a holden employee that worked at gmh woodville. it was ordered with vc hdt bodykit, sports camshaft,130/90 headlight upgrade and dark headlight covers. apparently the owner wasn't a fan of the vh grp3 body kit and wanted his grp 3 to look like the race car of 82/83, which makes sense when you think about it. i know this because i am the current owner.

Congratulations mate, a great looking car you have there. I like that kit better IMO. Makes sense, as there are other listings of car similar ( haven't came across another Woodville one ) and HDT employee builds also.

Sniper
29-05-2014, 06:50 AM
i know this because i am the current owner.

Awesome

Pickles
29-05-2014, 07:33 AM
1020 was ordered from hdt by a holden employee that worked at gmh woodville. it was ordered with vc hdt bodykit, sports camshaft,130/90 headlight upgrade and dark headlight covers. apparently the owner wasn't a fan of the vh grp3 body kit and wanted his grp 3 to look like the race car of 82/83, which makes sense when you think about it. i know this because i am the current owner.
Welcome , & thanks for the FACTS. Obviously, you have a very nice car.
Pickles.

Sniper
29-05-2014, 10:20 AM
Another post for the *****er generation but I will need some help from others to ensure I am right . . Or wrong

One thing that differed a little back in the 80's as wheel choices

I'll list the HDT wheels to the best of my knowledge . . once again being in SA kept me away from any odd prototypes etc that Brock was messing with

1. Irmshires 15 x 7's on the VC and the VH GP3 and VK LM5000
2. Centra's - these were an optional wheel with a slightly greater offset that was a bit troublesome at time with tyres scraping
3. 15 x 7 Directionals on the VKSS and base Director - true directional wheels with Brock getting ROH to do a LHS and RHD tool
4. 16 x 7 Directionals for the VK GP3 and GPA . . . the GP3 had the 3rd plate
Directionals were available as a 2 or 3 piece . . . the base SS had 2 piece - the base Diector had the extra centre plate . . . same with the 16's . . . Only the base wheels varied in production and the second and third "plates" were the same for both 15 & 16's
4. VL MOMO's available in both 16 x 7 and 16 x 8 . . .
The 16 x 7 were the only officially endorsed size by GMH and went on the Calais LE and the Group A . . . however there were 16 x 8" available which looked pretty bloody sweet on the VL with 225's instead of the stock 205 RE71's . . . the VK had a slightly narrower rear axle ***embly which enabled the fitment of 245's which was tough way back then - I have a full set of 5 16 x 8's on my VL GPA - with 225's
5. After the split with Holden Brock used a few differing variants of the Simmons that were around at the time - he organised with Tony Simmons to machine the centres to facilitate the MOMO centre plate and cap which made them unique and look very HDT . . he also did a variant of the VK Directionsl wheel which was fitted to the GP3 "Signature Series" in late 87

I m not 100% on the official line from Brock as to the reason for a 16 x 8 MOMO but they were pretty much specic for the pending IRS Director!! . . .

There were some cars in the early days with the Directional Vette Wheels but I am not 100% sure of the real story - I can remember a HDT staffer having hese on his car at Bertie Street

Hopefully Daniel (SV90) can put together a dedicated montage of the wheels in a post soon

adr8
29-05-2014, 03:39 PM
The VL Turbo had an advantage in the diff ratio . . . It had 3.45:1 and all the other VL's (inc both GPA's) had 3.08:1


No chip/no tune.
Pickles.

Thanks :) Sorry if it was off-topic, but good to know nonetheless. Great thread so far, I have a new appreciation of the VC & VH HDTs they look tuff, especially in black :)

SV90
29-05-2014, 10:03 PM
VC
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg3_zpse34f5bee.jpg

VH Group 1. Standard VH SS type. Car pictured is not a Group 1
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg1_zps7abe275b.jpg

VH Group 2 and 3 and ADP
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg1_zps9797eb92.jpg

Centra Rims . Optional on VH and VK
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg10_zpsc6648f0d.jpg

http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg1_zpsc72eb0a1.jpg

VK LM 5000 . Slightly different to VC/VH with painted inner spokes
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg2_zpsdd9c8b04.jpg

WB Magnum
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg1_zps34eb7a9c.jpg

15 inch directionals.
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg4_zps69c1b92d.jpg

16 inch directionals with centre cover
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg12_zpsad15935a.jpg

VK Group A optional White directionals
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg5_zpsbd0ebab1.jpg

Momo stars 16x7 and 16x8.
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg7_zps61a0874b.jpg

Momo stars colour coded option
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg9_zps4a2e6a8c.jpg

VL Group 3 Signature series
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg8_zps759087cd.jpg

Corvette style rims mentioned
http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww301/HSV_SV_90/imagejpg6_zpsf81b257b.jpg

Machined Simmons with Momo HDT centre caps. ( awesome car )http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/LEGRP3002.jpg


I don't have a picture of the HDT Jackaroo rims or the one off HDT TN Magna handy.

Sniper
30-05-2014, 08:44 AM
Machined Simmons with Momo HDT centre caps. ( awesome car )http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/LEGRP3002.jpg

Lincolns GPA/3.

This car of Lincolns will always rate in the top 5 SV's ever built

VIP-427
30-05-2014, 09:29 AM
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/vkgroupa3_side.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/vkgroupa3_side.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/vkgroupa3_rear2.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/vkgroupa3_rear2.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/vkgroupa3_engine.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/vkgroupa3_engine.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/vkgroupa3_interior.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/vkgroupa3_interior.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/LEGRP3010.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/LEGRP3010.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/LEGRP3007-1.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/LEGRP3007-1.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/vkgroupa3_decal.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/vkgroupa3_decal.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/Brock008.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/Brock008.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/Brock013-1.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/Brock013-1.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/Brock015-1.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/Brock015-1.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/Brock005.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/Brock005.jpg.html)

http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/LEGRP3015.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/LEGRP3015.jpg.html)

the BEST LE-GRP 3 your likely to never see.

VIP-427
30-05-2014, 09:39 AM
http://i355.photobucket.com/albums/r462/LJCHSV/VHGRP3.jpg (http://s355.photobucket.com/user/LJCHSV/media/VHGRP3.jpg.html)

Pre digital photo days..... i have to scan more of my VH GRP 3 photos onto my computer before i can upload as they are old school photo's, this is one i had on my comp already.

This VH was really, really something!

Sniper
30-05-2014, 12:26 PM
[

Pre digital photo days..... i have to scan more of my VH GRP 3 photos onto my computer before i can upload as they are old school photo's, this is one i had on my comp already.

This VH was really, really something!

I think your VH is my all time #1 Brock . . . not that my opinion counts but trying to do a 1 - 5 is hard . . . at the moment I have both Lincolns cars in the top 2 . . . but there may be some awesome cars out there that I am yet to eyeball . . .

Senator01
30-05-2014, 02:29 PM
[
the BEST LE-GRP 3 your likely to never see.

Are they custom show stands the rears are on? Nicely done if so ...

HSVGTS125
30-05-2014, 03:15 PM
HDT-017 was nice, was a VK Group A/3 but modified with twin throttle bodies.

walkysa
30-05-2014, 04:42 PM
the BEST LE-GRP 3 your likely to never see.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely stunning!

Sniper
30-05-2014, 07:51 PM
This thread will be a challenge to my memory and I hope that if I get omething wrong or miss some details on a topic please correct me

I mentioned A9L in another thread and have been asked what this is/was and what was special about it

There were a few versions of the A9L . . . but I guess we need to start with the basic description. . . the A9L was the designated engine code for the Homolation engine used in the GPA's . . . and was also used in the GPA/3 . . . and in other models from time to time

. . . .but I will stay on the VK & VL HDT versions - which differed from dash other

The VK had h/duty L34 style rods . . . The big valve heads . . Crane Roller Rockers . . . specific hi lift Crane CM and heavier valve springs. . . the performance intake manifold with dual inlets (rather than 4) . . there was also a variant of the std crankshaft . . . and it was anted red and fitted with chrome rocker covers

What made this A9L pretty special was the Cam . . . it was not a good cam in a performance sense but the Group A international regulations at the time allowed for a certain amount of Camshaft lift provided the road going Homologation car had that lift . . . so Holden had Crane supply a 491 thou lift Cam to "milk" the rules - sadly the road going Group A still had to meet emissions so the "duration" of this CM was ordinary and the overall performance gain for the road car was negligible . . . but it was good to have and arguably made the VK A9L the most unique as a road going version . . . finally the VK was fitted with a nice set of primary headers that were engineered to have the secondaries made into any configuration as per the FIA rules

The VL A9L differed quite a lot in the interest of reliability but firstly I must say the Cam issue was resolved with the FIA and the VL no longer had a Homologation high lift cam - bugger . . . but the VL copped plenty of other goodies the VK A9L didn't have!! . . . . special rods with an extra bit of ribbing for strength . . . a better crank . . . and trick "machined" main bearing caps that looked quite awesome at the time - I have a pic somewhere but I can't lay my hands on it right now . . a unique lighter flywheel too which I hope I can find a pic of . . . this donk was painted black and had chrome rocker covers too . . . HDT and Holden "milked" the exhaust rules to the max with the VL (and the Walky too) by having the first joint in the header just 3 inches from the exhaust port . . . which enabled clever engineers like Larry Perkins, Ian Tate, Les Small and Neil Burns to produce varying power and torque depending on the track they were racing at the time . .

I'm sure I've missed things in this post but that's a basic description

As I said, I was sure I missed something . . . and I did

Both the VK and VL GPA's has Crane Roller Rockers as part of the Racecar Homologation too - these had a ratio of 1.65 compared to the stock 1.6 rockers which effectively raised the camshaft lift (or valve opening height)

The VK had 5/16" pushrods which were std Holden fare but in the Racecar they tended to bend so HDT had the VL homologated with 3/8" pushrods . . . the engine builders didn't use the std pushrods but the size enabled them to upgrade to thicker Moly rods in the VL

To facilitate the Crane style Roller Rockers the heads were machined differently and pushrods guide - plates were also used - these were the usual fare plates that engine builders use but had a neat HDT stamp on them

The A9L was built at Fishermans Bend alongside all the other Holden V8's at the time . . . .

dgp
31-05-2014, 07:29 AM
Great information Sniper, it must have been such an exciting time being involved in those years, I had a VL LE Turbo but not until after HDT had been closed for 10 years.
It's such a shame that even HSV does not cater to its fans like it seemed HDT did, I know there are commercial considerations, but that's what makes the w**** concept so special, the personalisation.

Sniper
31-05-2014, 08:20 AM
It's such a shame that even HSV does not cater to its fans like it seemed HDT did, I know there are commercial considerations, but that's what makes the w**** concept so special, the personalisation.

Too true . . . Crennan was approachable but kept the corporate line totally in place and I guess after Brock started to close Holden out of some decisions in early 1986 there was a taste in everyone's mouth at Fishermans Bend that needed to change . . .

. . . having an icon like Brock pretty much personalising your motoring adventure made it just that . . . an adventure . . . and if Brock wanted to change something it just happened . . . which made him a "loose cannon" at Holben but a sourse of excitement and anticipation for us guys at the time

If only they could have worked better together but I totally blame Bev and Eric Dowker for that . . . I my opinion

richo7502000
31-05-2014, 10:16 PM
WOW, that Blue Meanie is absolutely mint. I was always wanting a VH Group 3 for as long as i can remember... Maybe if i win tatts lotto i may get the chance!!!

LipSpoiler
01-06-2014, 10:19 PM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2093_zps9fe43258.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2093_zps9fe43258.jpg.html)
I would like to know more about this vehicle, if anyone knows?
I remember watching Peter Brock being interviewed about this vehicle on youtube, can't find it on youtube now but I am sure I downloaded it some years ago. Could do a search for it if you are interested.

Sniper
01-06-2014, 10:28 PM
It's on YouTube as "WB Holden Statesman Magnum."

HSVGTS125
02-06-2014, 09:19 AM
The statesman and ute
http://www.uniquecarsmag.com.au/news-and-reviews/article/articleid/41861.aspx

VC Brock with only 80,000km

http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/katanning/cars-vans-utes/brock-vc-hdt-commodore/1041864663

RCBVFGTS
03-06-2014, 11:57 AM
Pickles, would you happen to know what ever happened to some of HDT mechanics/engine guys like Cameron Fisher? Do they still work for Holden or should I say on Holden's? I remember he was one of the first to put the EFI 304 into an (I think it was a VH or VB) early model Commodore which if memory is right sometime around the early 90's. I think he had something to do with a white VN too that had a pink painted engine in it too that had HDT badges on the rear at around the same time?

Pickles
03-06-2014, 02:36 PM
I remember Cameron VERY well. He rebuilt the engine in the VL Director (that went to the U.S.) purchased by a friend of mine who wishes he'd never sold it. He also built the engine in the white VN, the car you speak of. I think you're referring to the VN built by Peter Collorafi,...there was lots of experimental stuff in that engine (we were just getting used to computers & EFI!), but for its time, it was bloody strong.
The other car you speak of, I also remember, I think it was a VB,..I had a ride in it,....it was pretty quick, when ya could stop the wheelspin!
So yeah, He did lots of good stuff for HDT post Brock. I thought I heard years ago that he got involved in Nascar, whether it was in Aus, or the U.S., I don't know, but I haven't heard of him for ages.
Pickles.

RCBVFGTS
03-06-2014, 07:59 PM
Yes that's the car Pickles. I think from memory it had white Simmons B45's with an SV5000 front bar? I do remember it was the time that people were first playing with EFI as you said too (popular trend back then with the VL Turbo was to add an extra injector). From memory at the time Neil Burns built Greg Stevenson a twin throttle body VN Calais they painted Asteroid Silver and put a ZF box in it too. I distinctly remember that car as it was riding on 19" wheels as back in those days 17" wheels were the "wow" factor littlelone 19".
I haven't seen Peter Collorafi in a few years now. His son Justin works in a well known shop in the Robina Town Centre on the Gold Coast. I haven't had a chance to speak to him as it's probably the busiest shop in the entire centre. Peter did excellent work on body kits and was very meticulous with attention to detail.

Pickles
04-06-2014, 10:00 AM
Yes, I knew Greg, & I knew that car,...lots of dollars put into that.
But, Greg had the dollars, and he was also into HSV/Holden salvage for many years. I remember going into the back of his shop, & he had a BRAND NEW VN Group A engine complete with twin throttle bodies. I bought a couple of GENUINE VN Group A 4 bolt blocks from him, and also a brand new VN Group A exhaust system.
Peter Collorafi was pretty cluey& he was meticulous. The white car took a long time to complete as did another "project" of his which was a small 190E Mercedes Benz into which he dropped a 5L EFI Holden V8,...LOTS of work in that car.
Pickles.

RCBVFGTS
04-06-2014, 03:00 PM
Pickles, at about this same time there was a magnificent VK SS Group A getting around with an XY Falcon shaker, white rims and the interior had white leather seats and from memory the top half of the dash was either dark blue or black and from the bottom half down it was white leather too. The interior was simply amazing and beautiful. If memory serves me correct I think the engine was heavily modified too by Ian Tate (I haven't heard that name in the industry now for a long time). Would you happen to know of this car and if so what happened to it or have any photos?

Pickles
04-06-2014, 05:49 PM
Pickles, at about this same time there was a magnificent VK SS Group A getting around with an XY Falcon shaker, white rims and the interior had white leather seats and from memory the top half of the dash was either dark blue or black and from the bottom half down it was white leather too. The interior was simply amazing and beautiful. If memory serves me correct I think the engine was heavily modified too by Ian Tate (I haven't heard that name in the industry now for a long time). Would you happen to know of this car and if so what happened to it or have any photos?
No, I don't remember that car. But, as it's non original, that wouldn't be unusual as I tend to focus on factory "ORIGINAL"
vehicles.
I know "Tatey" very well, & so I can tell you that he is still firing on all cylinders, he is big in the Historic racing field these days, but is still more than capable of building a strong Holden V8, and his expertise at building 300+HP engines for XU1s is unsurp***ed.
Tatey loves a chat, He is just a lovely man, but like I say, He loves a chat, it's a wonder he gets anything done at all.
Pickles.

VIP-427
04-06-2014, 08:13 PM
Pickles, at about this same time there was a magnificent VK SS Group A getting around with an XY Falcon shaker, white rims and the interior had white leather seats and from memory the top half of the dash was either dark blue or black and from the bottom half down it was white leather too. The interior was simply amazing and beautiful. If memory serves me correct I think the engine was heavily modified too by Ian Tate (I haven't heard that name in the industry now for a long time). Would you happen to know of this car and if so what happened to it or have any photos?

I remember this car... It was a replica... I remember it being in an early edition of commodore crazy or commodore Power or the like.

RCBVFGTS
05-06-2014, 08:11 AM
Yes that's the one VIP-427. It's going back a good 25yrs ago now so I couldn't recall if it was genuine or not. It actually looked cl***y without being over the top for the time period

Sniper
21-06-2014, 11:59 AM
Forgot another thing with the A9L . . . it had a double row timing chain!!

Which takes me back to Bathurst 85 when Brock was driving a VK pre the Group A Homologation specials era and he pulled into the pits late in the race and parked 05 . . . the official line was a broken timing chain . . . but I disagree . . . does anyone really know why he parked 05 on that day?

HSVGTS125
21-06-2014, 12:33 PM
Forgot another thing with the A9L . . . it had a double row timing chain!!

Which takes me back to Bathurst 85 when Brock was driving a VK pre the Group A Homologation specials era and he pulled into the pits late in the race and parked 05 . . . the official line was a broken timing chain . . . but I disagree . . . does anyone really know why he parked 05 on that day?

was that the model they kicked the rear windscreen out?

Sniper
21-06-2014, 01:08 PM
Yeah it was . . . John Goss won in the Jag I think

RedHotMike
21-06-2014, 07:23 PM
Forgot another thing with the A9L . . . it had a double row timing chain!!

Which takes me back to Bathurst 85 when Brock was driving a VK pre the Group A Homologation specials era and he pulled into the pits late in the race and parked 05 . . . the official line was a broken timing chain . . . but I disagree . . . does anyone really know why he parked 05 on that day?

I remember watching that race as a kid - always thought it was a timing chain... Do tell :confused:

Sniper
21-06-2014, 07:59 PM
Brock drove the thing into pit and . . Parked it . . got out and said timing chain

How the fark do you drive it that far down the pit row with a broken timing chain????

Rumour has it . . . 05 had no chance of winning so it was running an illegal combo!!!!

RedHotMike
21-06-2014, 08:06 PM
Brock drove the thing into pit and . . Parked it . . got out and said timing chain

How the fark do you drive it that far down the pit row with a broken timing chain????

Rumour has it . . . 05 had no chance of winning so it was running an illegal combo!!!!

Granted I was ***** and it was a looooooong time ago but I thought he rolled. But! I do have the full coverage of that Bathurst somewhere. It might be time for a recap. So - what was illegal? (not in any way disputing your claim - it does entirely make sense - just trying to piece it together in my mind)

Sniper
21-06-2014, 08:33 PM
I was a lot *****er then too . . maybe we need to wait until you watch the last 30 mins you have on tape before we make any more conclusions . . but there was no doubt that the VK in stock form was a "Grenade" with a single row chain!!!

RCBVFGTS
01-08-2014, 10:29 AM
I remember Cameron VERY well. He rebuilt the engine in the VL Director (that went to the U.S.) purchased by a friend of mine who wishes he'd never sold it. He also built the engine in the white VN, the car you speak of. I think you're referring to the VN built by Peter Collorafi,...there was lots of experimental stuff in that engine (we were just getting used to computers & EFI!), but for its time, it was bloody strong.
The other car you speak of, I also remember, I think it was a VB,..I had a ride in it,....it was pretty quick, when ya could stop the wheelspin!
So yeah, He did lots of good stuff for HDT post Brock. I thought I heard years ago that he got involved in Nascar, whether it was in Aus, or the U.S., I don't know, but I haven't heard of him for ages.
Pickles.


Pickles, look what I stumbled across

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/HDT-Aero-1990/SSE-AD-2837207

It's enough to make a grown man cry :(

Pickles
01-08-2014, 04:03 PM
Pickles, look what I stumbled across

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/HDT-Aero-1990/SSE-AD-2837207

It's enough to make a grown man cry :(
Unreal, I agree with you.
There's not much left of the car is there, I wonder what happened to all the good bits,..stolen & recovered?
In any event, that is very sad. IMHO there's not enough left to warrant a resto,...to build the engine (and who knows the original internal specs) with twin throttle bodies would cost squillions, then there's everything else, plus the trim, plus plus plus. So, not worth the trouble.
Pickles.

Nitrate
28-10-2014, 10:55 AM
Just re read this, how good is it! Any chance of it continuing on? :)

SMOKED
08-08-2015, 05:06 PM
Just re read this, how good is it! Any chance of it continuing on? :)

Thread reboot - photos From the 25 Year DVDs and Bc.com

http://www.brockcommodores.com/Fact%20Files/Images/vldirector_greenside.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w72/smokedv8/Wallpapers/SV_Group_A_TN.jpg

SMOKED
08-08-2015, 05:10 PM
http://www.brockcommodores.com/Fact%20Files/Images/vlle_bluerear.jpg

http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2423/41/6055020019_large.jpg

Strick
08-08-2015, 09:17 PM
Ah, havent seen you around here for a while. Nice looking early ****s there

Angeldust
09-08-2015, 10:47 AM
great thread! although I was too ***** to fully appreciate it (licence in 1993), I always loved the VC HDT brocks.

Looking at those adverts, especially the advertised power figures, they went backwards ie the VK ad is stated the GP A is at 200kw, but later the VL GP A was only 137KW and slower 0-100 times.

Can anyone remember back to the day and what the their thoughts on this were? Its like a the VF coming out with less power and performance than a VE. Now that would cause a big stir/backlash today..
:)

Angeldust
09-08-2015, 10:49 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2095_zps738f23e7.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2095_zps738f23e7.jpg.html)
Great add!

there and this one

Angeldust
09-08-2015, 10:50 AM
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q567/moray066/IMG_2099_zps6c34476a.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/moray066/media/IMG_2099_zps6c34476a.jpg.html)
2nd part of the VL Grp A add



Looking at those adverts, especially the advertised power figures, they went backwards ie the VK ad is stated the GP A is at 200kw, but later the VL GP A was only 137KW and slower 0-100 times.

Can anyone remember back to the day and what the their thoughts on this were? Its like a the VF coming out with less power and performance than a VE. Now that would cause a big stir/backlash today....

??

Pickles
09-08-2015, 03:17 PM
great thread! although I was too ***** to fully appreciate it (licence in 1993), I always loved the VC HDT brocks.

Looking at those adverts, especially the advertised power figures, they went backwards ie the VK ad is stated the GP A is at 200kw, but later the VL GP A was only 137KW and slower 0-100 times.

Can anyone remember back to the day and what the their thoughts on this were? Its like a the VF coming out with less power and performance than a VE. Now that would cause a big stir/backlash today..
:)
The VK was "supposed" to be 196KW (Brock's figure & leaded)
The VL was "actually" 137KW (Holden's figure)
I'm not up with the way these figures were calculated, but Brock calculated differently than Holden,..He was also known to be quite on the generous side!!
In reality the St. Quarter was fairly similar for the two cars, and the VL was a much better car to steer than the VK,....although the "Blue VK" is always considered to be the "Hero Car".
Pickles.

Smitty
09-02-2016, 07:30 PM
Getting a 304 into the VL was easy . . . getting Chuck Chapman to sign off on the ULP 304 development was the challenge . . . it had to go from 8.8:1 to 8.5:1 and cop at fresh set of "head development" for ULP also

John Lindall was a great source of support for HDT and all us V8 fans at the time too . . and he along with Brock "drove" the "V8 til 98" campaign

For all the ***** guys n ****s on here - there was a m***ive drive by many to get the V8 back into production and the "V8 til 98" campaign had plenty of support inc print material and bumper stickers generated by HDT and paid for by Holden - lol

I'd luv to know hard Brock & Lindall had to work to get Chapman over the line . . .

It wasn't only Chapman... but the entire Product approval team (yes Chapman was Chairman but that
committee contained a number of other GMH directors)

The problem that arose that made the decision difficult was the fact that in reality GMH had to tool up for
a new engine.. not once but TWICE.

The tooling (from foundry thru fettling and machine shop) for the existing carby V8 was stuffed rooted
with reject scrap levels in excess of 50% of what they made (we all complain about core shift) and it
needed renewing.. and then with the PFI engine under serious development (but in no way approved by GM)
it too needed new tooling.. from the heads thru to other engine components

And all that cost dollars... mega dollars and GMH was still struggling $ wise. The VL was selling well
but the yen was kicking the pacific peso to death and the engine trans combo had risen several thousand
dollars in cost (and Nissan was no GM subsidiary where in-house costings could be achieved :rolleyes: )

The bean counters made it difficult but in the end the sales guys put the numbers on the table ... and the V8 arose from the ashes

and yes.. it was with marketing help from Brock and John Lindall (who use both his Motorsport and Powertrain positions
to push it hard)

Smitty
09-02-2016, 08:41 PM
The VK was "supposed" to be 196KW (Brock's figure & leaded)
The VL was "actually" 137KW (Holden's figure)
I'm not up with the way these figures were calculated, but Brock calculated differently than Holden,..He was also known to be quite on the generous side!!
In reality the St. Quarter was fairly similar for the two cars, and the VL was a much better car to steer than the VK,....although the "Blue VK" is always considered to be the "Hero Car".
Pickles.

Pickles
Brock as well as a gun driver had the marketing smarts.. make HIS cars/engines show up with more horsepower
of course he was on a winner

The best VK A9L engine was dyno'd... the same way engines are tested in the engine plant
NO accessories or ancillaries (cooling fan or alternator) thin run in oil, timing pushed, open exhaust at the end of the extractors etc
and a flexplate with ring gear to start it.

Add the fact that for VK the GrpA rules said you needed the race cam in the street engine.. no wonder it made a mountain more hp than any Holden prior engine. the VL had no race cam and was tested to the SAE standard used by Holden... all ancillaries, std cam and it made less hp

.. of course :)

the VK is more hard core than the VL.. the VL is simply nicer on the street
the 5 speed + std cam see to that

Smitty
09-02-2016, 09:39 PM
I doubt this thread will go too far on a HSV Forum but as some members subscribe to another forum that features HDT only and contains quite a lot of rubbish I thought it prudent to have some sort of discussion around actual facts

Also, there are a few members on here looking at HDT products at the moment they should also have access to knowledge that is correct . . . from those that lived the era

It's been just over 27 years sinse GMH pulled the pin on Brock so many on here were still in "Bagdad" or quite ***** so have little concept of where the real beginning was . . . How it evolved . . Why it evolved . . . and why it ended and what really caused the demise . . .
....................

wow.. where to start?

dgp
09-02-2016, 09:44 PM
wow.. where to start?

At the start please :)

walkysa
09-02-2016, 11:08 PM
At the start please :)

I second DGP's suggestion. Some great history.

WalkySA

Smitty
10-02-2016, 03:30 PM
At the start please :)

my missus reckons I should write a book
plenty to say when I have worked for Cadburys, Dunlop... and GMH

There are tales about Lang Lang, the GTR-X, Brock and Harves, Sheppo
the impossible builds ...from my GMH days

will have a think how I can put 'my' HDT story together :)

Pickles
10-02-2016, 03:54 PM
my missus reckons I should write a book
plenty to say when I have worked for Cadburys, Dunlop... and GMH

There are tales about Lang Lang, the GTR-X, Brock and Harves, Sheppo
the impossible builds ...from my GMH days

will have a think how I can put 'my' HDT story together :)
We're waiting.
FACTUAL history is always welcome. Too much "myth & hearsay" by so-called "experts" these days?
Regards, Pickles.

Tyler5
11-02-2016, 11:55 PM
I love reading about these stories as my first Bathurst memory was when Brocks VKs finished 1 2 and I was only 7 years old since then I have been a mad Holden man much to my old mans disgust

Smitty
12-02-2016, 09:40 AM
We're waiting.
FACTUAL history is always welcome. Too much "myth & hearsay" by so-called "experts" these days?
Regards, Pickles.

couldn't agree more with that. I certainly see some experts (even some of the better mags) throw
up some utter rubbish as the 'truth' or ' the real facts' I have stopped writing to mags to correct
their so called facts they publsih ... too many of them

Pickles
12-02-2016, 11:42 AM
couldn't agree more with that. I certainly see some experts (even some of the better mags) throw
up some utter rubbish as the 'truth' or ' the real facts' I have stopped writing to mags to correct
their so called facts they publsih ... too many of them
Lol,....I've been there too.
That guy Morley in Unique Cars, comes out with so much crap,.....yeah, I've written to him a few times, I've now given up,....for a while,.....until something else "gets me going"!
Pickles.

Sniper
24-09-2016, 07:30 PM
A couple of lads in SA had awesome cars that I enjoyed back in the day too - Michael Dontas's VK was my favourite GPA and Bill Panovic has still got his tough VH GP3 and drives it often

Its with great sadness that we lost "Big Bill" last night . . . I hope they swing hard in heaven mate . . . you lived life believing that redlines started at 7000 . . . and knew how to teach a Tacho a lesson . . . RIP 'ol mate . . .

Smitty
25-09-2016, 07:26 PM
As I said, I was sure I missed something . . . and I did

Both the VK and VL GPA's has Crane Roller Rockers as part of the Racecar Homologation too - these had a ratio of 1.65 compared to the stock 1.6 rockers which effectively raised the camshaft lift (or valve opening height)

The VK had 5/16" pushrods which were std Holden fare but in the Racecar they tended to bend so HDT had the VL homologated with 3/8" pushrods . . . the engine builders didn't use the std pushrods but the size enabled them to upgrade to thicker Moly rods in the VL

To facilitate the Crane style Roller Rockers the heads were machined differently and pushrods guide - plates were also used - these were the usual fare plates that engine builders use but had a neat HDT stamp on them

The A9L was built at Fishermans Bend alongside all the other Holden V8's at the time . . . .

A9L? ... sorta like A9X (unless one knows how GMH set all their various codes :) )

anyhow... I digress
was doing some sorting out in the study this afternoon and found a pile of GMH manufacturing and production
records I have (and had forgotten)

Top of the pile was a copy of the GMH Engineering Change Notice that started what we call.... the 'Blue Meanie'
made using the production code of A9L. .. known as a 'Special Merchandising Pack'
Special indeed....


Here a few pages...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/smitty1955/Car%20Stuff%20not%20VK/A9L_1_zpsoknjzted.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/smitty1955/media/Car%20Stuff%20not%20VK/A9L_1_zpsoknjzted.jpg.html)


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/smitty1955/Car%20Stuff%20not%20VK/A9L_2_zps9puxqqhm.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/smitty1955/media/Car%20Stuff%20not%20VK/A9L_2_zps9puxqqhm.jpg.html)

Pickles
25-09-2016, 08:05 PM
Smitty, that is awesome awesome awesome stuff mate,....I doubt it's ever been seen by "mere mortals" before, so well done.
Pickles.

RCBVFGTS
26-09-2016, 07:04 AM
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! Smitty that stuff is gold, pure gold! You've kept them in good condition too, not a wrinkle or crease on them.

Smitty
26-09-2016, 07:36 AM
yeah... kept in good nick in a box behind a pile of other stuff.

Most appears to have survived the p***age of time (even if the photocopies were done 30+ years ago)

here is a little bit more.... in no special order


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/smitty1955/Car%20Stuff%20not%20VK/Std_parts_1_zpsfenskvms.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/smitty1955/media/Car%20Stuff%20not%20VK/Std_parts_1_zpsfenskvms.jpg.html)


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/smitty1955/Car%20Stuff%20not%20VK/GMH_sales_zps44a318d5.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/smitty1955/media/Car%20Stuff%20not%20VK/GMH_sales_zps44a318d5.jpg.html)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/smitty1955/Car%20Stuff%20not%20VK/VC_334_zps5cod0gly.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/smitty1955/media/Car%20Stuff%20not%20VK/VC_334_zps5cod0gly.jpg.html)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/smitty1955/Car%20Pics/2211_001.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/smitty1955/media/Car%20Pics/2211_001.jpg.html)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/smitty1955/Car%20Pics/VC_SLE_RPO.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/smitty1955/media/Car%20Pics/VC_SLE_RPO.jpg.html)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/smitty1955/Car%20Pics/2358_001.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/smitty1955/media/Car%20Pics/2358_001.jpg.html)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/smitty1955/Car%20Pics/2ba1_1.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/user/smitty1955/media/Car%20Pics/2ba1_1.jpg.html)

RCBVFGTS
26-09-2016, 07:55 AM
That is simply awesome!

Pickles
26-09-2016, 08:59 AM
Went to visit the BCOAA display at Fed Square yesterday,...some wonderful HDT vehicles on display, including ROC cars.
Pickles.

dgp
26-09-2016, 12:18 PM
Smitty, that stuff is GOLD.

Smitty
26-09-2016, 03:22 PM
Went to visit the BCOAA display at Fed Square yesterday,...some wonderful HDT vehicles on display, including ROC cars.
Pickles.

hmmm... yes well, ROC cars
nearly got me the sack from GMH
(coz I agreed with Mr Brock he could have temporarily 'some' cars... for promotional purposes ;))

TPKW30
26-09-2016, 05:10 PM
hmmm... yes well, ROC cars
nearly got me the sack from GMH
(coz I agreed with Mr Brock he could have temporarily 'some' cars... for promotional purposes ;))

So the "temporary cars" Brock took to HDT & turned into the 12 ROC cars??

Smitty
26-09-2016, 08:44 PM
So the "temporary cars" Brock took to HDT & turned into the 12 ROC cars??

As a 'Level 8' Manager at GMH involved with Inventory and Supply, I had certain authority/authorization powers and
I signed for Brock's request to take 12 cars already allocated to dealers.. shortly after, I found they were to be race cars (mistake 1)
and then he took more ...13? 14? in the end and I copped 'heat' for that too

TPKW30
27-09-2016, 12:00 PM
As a 'Level 8' Manager at GMH involved with Inventory and Supply, I had certain authority/authorization powers and
I signed for Brock's request to take 12 cars already allocated to dealers.. shortly after, I found they were to be race cars (mistake 1)
and then he took more ...13? 14? in the end and I copped 'heat' for that too

gold!!!!

The ROC cars were on top of the 500 VC build?

Pickles
27-09-2016, 12:36 PM
gold!!!!

The ROC cars were on top of the 500 VC build?
Yes.
Pickles.

Smitty
27-09-2016, 03:01 PM
gold!!!!

The ROC cars were on top of the 500 VC build?

well.. yes NO
actually no-one really knows and I have NFI really :confused:

The deal that Vin Keane (and the small band of dealers who had supporting the idea)
got John rock (Sales Director at GMH) to approve was a run of 500 cars..
ALL had to be made with a dealers sales code on the traffic order (which generated the
manufacture of a vehicle) but with one being allowed to be 'kept' by HDT. So initially
499 for dealers to sell, one for HDT. Best laid plans... yeah

Brock, being Brock got the idea to promote them by having ROC.... he being MC and Ringmaster
of the w**** event (cool... good publicity in my view) So he asks to 'borrow' 10.. then 12
and eventually 13?... possibly 14 manual versions in a variety of colours but PGB HAD to HAVE A BLACK ONE :)

My incomplete recollection of this is... GMH ended up making 503 versions of the HDT Commodore
and I have no idea if that is accurate. Some say 504 as one went overseas....

All I know is... I approved for release from the Dandenong plant to go to North Melbourne a batch of 12 cars
I was informed were for 'promotional purposes' . ROC cars they ended up as .. along with possibly a further one
Brock asked for

TPKW30
27-09-2016, 03:11 PM
well.. yes NO
actually no-one really knows and I have NFI really :confused:

The deal that Vin Keane (and the small band of dealers who had supporting the idea)
got John rock (Sales Director at GMH) to approve was a run of 500 cars..
ALL had to be made with a dealers sales code on the traffic order (which generated the
manufacture of a vehicle) but with one being allowed to be 'kept' by HDT. So initially
499 for dealers to sell, one for HDT. Best laid plans... yeah

Brock, being Brock got the idea to promote them by having ROC.... he being MC and Ringmaster
of the w**** event (cool... good publicity in my view) So he asks to 'borrow' 10.. then 12
and eventually 13?... possibly 14 manual versions in a variety of colours but PGB HAD to HAVE A BLACK ONE :)

My incomplete recollection of this is... GMH ended up making 503 versions of the HDT Commodore
and I have no idea if that is accurate. Some say 504 as one went overseas....

All I know is... I approved for release from the Dandenong plant to go to North Melbourne a batch of 12 cars
I was informed were for 'promotional purposes' . ROC cars they ended up as .. along with possibly a further one
Brock asked for

And the rest as they is history....good stuff......

Pickles
28-09-2016, 07:58 AM
I've been a member of the HDT Owners Club for over 30 years.
I know the person who has Brock's ROC Car, even helped him to obtain the roll cage from the then owner, Brad Dunstan, who was working at HSV at the time. That Black car is now located in the Birdwood Museum, where it has been for many years, complete with door damage sustained in the ROC.
I have a copy of the Brock "Bible" which is obtained from HDT's sales records which show several of the first cars (commencing with "000" which was the blue VB prototype) being ordered by Dealers. There is no mention of the ROC cars in this book, as they do not have build numbers. The VIN numbers of the ROC cars, do not appear in this book, which covers the 500 run plus the ooo prototype. There is also another "later" VC that was a special order, a silver car with a cream leather interior, that has also been authenticated. I know several owners of ROC cars, all of them claim that their cars are not included in the 500,which is also what Brock also told me.
So Smitty, whilst I normally agree with you, in this case, I'm afraid that I cannot.
Pickles.

Smitty
28-09-2016, 09:54 AM
I've been a member of the HDT Owners Club for over 30 years.
I know the person who has Brock's ROC Car, even helped him to obtain the roll cage from the then owner, Brad Dunstan, who was working at HSV at the time. That Black car is now located in the Birdwood Museum, where it has been for many years, complete with door damage sustained in the ROC.
I have a copy of the Brock "Bible" which is obtained from HDT's sales records which show several of the first cars (commencing with "000" which was the blue VB prototype) being ordered by Dealers. There is no mention of the ROC cars in this book, as they do not have build numbers. The VIN numbers of the ROC cars, do not appear in this book, which covers the 500 run plus the ooo prototype. There is also another "later" VC that was a special order, a silver car with a cream leather interior, that has also been authenticated. I know several owners of ROC cars, all of them claim that their cars are not included in the 500,which is also what Brock also told me.
So Smitty, whilst I normally agree with you, in this case, I'm afraid that I cannot.

Pickles.

don't think you are.. if I understand what you are getting at.

The ROC cars were never 'sold' in the way that GMH/HDT recorded things at the time.
By writing them out of the ***embly plant as 'promotional use', they were never recorded
as 'sold' .. just the same way that cars built and then taken away for internal GMH use
(crash test, ADR tests etc) were never recorded as sales.

What you say regarding the VINs and then the ROC cars not appearing in HDT sales records I think supports my statement
that GMH built more than the original 500 .. and no-one I know (and that includes Leo Pruneau Norm Darwin and
some of the guys in Vic Zone Sales at the time) can confirm exactly how many went down the Dandenong ***embly line

TPKW30
28-09-2016, 10:42 AM
The VC's went down the line as standard vehicles if my memory is correct??
The mods were down 100% in house by HDT???
(unlike later HDT models that had most work done on the production line)

Pickles
28-09-2016, 02:44 PM
don't think you are.. if I understand what you are getting at.

The ROC cars were never 'sold' in the way that GMH/HDT recorded things at the time.
By writing them out of the ***embly plant as 'promotional use', they were never recorded
as 'sold' .. just the same way that cars built and then taken away for internal GMH use
(crash test, ADR tests etc) were never recorded as sales.

What you say regarding the VINs and then the ROC cars not appearing in HDT sales records I think supports my statement
that GMH built more than the original 500 .. and no-one I know (and that includes Leo Pruneau Norm Darwin and
some of the guys in Vic Zone Sales at the time) can confirm exactly how many went down the Dandenong ***embly line
Beverley Harvey rang me this morning, after I had posted, and when I was out, about a totally unrelated matter.
So, after calling her back & speaking with her, I took the opportunity to speak with John, who confirmed that the ROC cars were definitely not included in, and were in addition to, the "run" of 500.
Pickles.

TPKW30
28-09-2016, 03:25 PM
Beverley Harvey rang me this morning, after I had posted, and when I was out, about a totally unrelated matter.
So, after calling her back & speaking with her, I took the opportunity to speak with John, who confirmed that the ROC cars were definitely not included in, and were in addition to, the "run" of 500.
Pickles.

You would have to go a long way to try & find a bigger 'Gentleman" than John Harvey - or better driver
for that matter...
And for their age, Bev & John are a wealth of knowledge about the old days...
(Next time you talk to her ask her about the "Rabbits & Crocodiles")

Pickles
28-09-2016, 04:37 PM
You would have to go a long way to try & find a bigger 'Gentleman" than John Harvey - or better driver
for that matter...
And for their age, Bev & John are a wealth of knowledge about the old days...
(Next time you talk to her ask her about the "Rabbits & Crocodiles")

You are ABSOLUTELY 1000% correct. One of the most genuine, fair dinkum "HDT" couples you could ever want to meet.
Pickles.